Cheney Daughter Remark

[dougrhess]

I wouldn't bring an opponent's family member into it or even comment about it. I just wouldn't go there. I think it was not a good choice of words on his part.

But was it fair for Cheney then? I mean come on, here's a fairly rabid presidency that is anti-gay and the VP has a openly gay high level staff member.  I haven't heard anybody in the gay community complaining about this yet.

[MODU]

If the person brings up family first in the middle of a discussion, then it is ok for the other person to comment on the family.  Cheney was not on stage with Kerry, so therefore it was not ok for Kerry to mention his family.

It is just that simple.

[dougrhess]

If the person brings up family first in the middle of a discussion, then it is ok for the other person to comment on the family.  Cheney was not on stage with Kerry, so therefore it was not ok for Kerry to mention his family.

It is just that simple.

Please. That seems a little bit too post hoc of a ruling to me. Cheney didn't mind when Edwards brought it up.  Lynn Cheney has always acted a little wacko on this issue. Maybe this will help bring to light her past on this and her strange behavior in government, too.

[Nym90]

If the person brings up family first in the middle of a discussion, then it is ok for the other person to comment on the family.  Cheney was not on stage with Kerry, so therefore it was not ok for Kerry to mention his family.

It is just that simple.

Well, my personal feeling is that it's ok as long as any statements made are completely factual and are not negative criticisms in any way, as these were.

[MODU]

If the person brings up family first in the middle of a discussion, then it is ok for the other person to comment on the family.  Cheney was not on stage with Kerry, so therefore it was not ok for Kerry to mention his family.

It is just that simple.

Please. That seems a little bit too post hoc of a ruling to me. Cheney didn't mind when Edwards brought it up.  Lynn Cheney has always acted a little wacko on this issue. Maybe this will help bring to light her past on this and her strange behavior in government, too.

And what was Cheney's response to it?  He told Edwards "Thanks," and he did not continue on with the remaining time he had available to respond to the issue.  He did a very classy move without slamming Edwards on the stage.

However, I go back to what I said before, Cheney wasn't on the stage with Bush, so Kerry should not have brought her up.  The rest of his answer was appropriate.  He only threw in that first line regarding Cheney's daughter as a tool to show that Bush and his VP disagree on a very hot topic.

[ATFFL]

If the person brings up family first in the middle of a discussion, then it is ok for the other person to comment on the family.  Cheney was not on stage with Kerry, so therefore it was not ok for Kerry to mention his family.

It is just that simple.

Well, my personal feeling is that it's ok as long as any statements made are completely factual and are not negative criticisms in any way, as these were.

Really?  Does Mary Cheney think that?

Kerry gave an answer that was his opinion.  That may truly be his opinion, but it cannot be considered a factual statement.

Who I want to hear from is Mary Cheney.  She is a very private person though, so I am not sure she will say anything one way or another.

[The Vorlon]

My memory is imperfect and fading.. but...

Kerry's first wife suffered from depression if I recall.

In the context of a question related to health care, would it have been "correct" for Bush to say..

"Senator, since your ex-wife suffered from depression, you know what I speak of when I say..blah...blah about mental health...."

A perfect point no one has responded to

Still waiting

[freewayticket]

Once again,  I think he could have and should have used a better example then to bring Cheney's daughter into the discussion. If Cheney was up there and he would have brought it up fine. But Cheney wasn't up there so I don't think it was a good idea to bring it up. The thing that gets me is that if it were me and he brought me into the discussion and I am not there to defend the remark or comment on it that would bother me. The other thing is if were me and I am watching the debate and he brings me up I would just look at him and say you S.O.B you. I mean how would he like it if Cheney or Bush brought one of Kerry's daughters lifestyle up in the middle of a debate and somehow try to tie it to the issue or some other family member for that matter. I mean I don't agree with Cheney's daughters lifestyle but again I wouldn't single the person out by name. Disagree with me if you want but I just wouldn't go there. And if you think he should have brought well then I guess everyone has their opinion. All I'm saying is I think he could have used another example.

[Nym90]

My memory is imperfect and fading.. but...

Kerry's first wife suffered from depression if I recall.

In the context of a question related to health care, would it have been "correct" for Bush to say..

"Senator, since your ex-wife suffered from depression, you know what I speak of when I say..blah...blah about mental health...."

A perfect point no one has responded to

Still waiting

I did.

[elcorazon]

My memory is imperfect and fading.. but...

Kerry's first wife suffered from depression if I recall.

In the context of a question related to health care, would it have been "correct" for Bush to say..

"Senator, since your ex-wife suffered from depression, you know what I speak of when I say..blah...blah about mental health...."

A perfect point no one has responded to

Still waiting

I'll respond.  First of all, Kerry made a mistake by bringing up the issue, not because it was in bad taste necessarily, but because it opened the door to another irrelevant discussion which takes away from Kerry's ability to benefit from actual political discussion.

Secondly, your example is not on point because Kerry was trying to humanize the issue of gays in America.  I think, in a way, his biggest mistake may have been using the word lesbian, which somehow sounds worse to people than gay.  The question was whether being gay was a choice.  Selecting someone specifically in the family of the administration drove the point home that it IS a choice.

I suppose if Bush were answering a question about whether mental health needs to be dealt with AND if he were taking the position that the federal government should provide more help, then bringing up a Kerry family member might be appropriate, but somehow that scenario doesn't seem too likely.

The real question is whether the stigma to mental health issues = the stigma with respect to sexual orientation.

I do also think it's odd that no one really criticized Edwards too much and now that Kerry utilized the issue similarly, it's a big deal.  I think the Bush Cheney people were hoping this would happen and were prepared to pounce to hopefully take the edge off of Kerry's debate victory.

It may have worked.

[AuH2O]

It was wrong. Kerry's statements after the fact make that clear-- he claimed to have no idea Cahill called Mary Cheney "fair game" and said that characterization was wrong.

The truth is, there has been a concerted effort by KE04 to make BC look bad somehow via Cheney's gay daughter. That is just slimy, dirty, immoral. Mary Cheney DOES NOT HAVE ANY RELEVANCE to the issue or the race.

What makes it REALLY bad, IS THAT KERRY SAID HE OPPOSES GAY MARRIAGE.

Not to mention I think it's just generally wrong to speak for someone that a) you've never met and b) opposes you.

[elcorazon]

here's a good article about the issue:

John Kerry's lesbian moment
Dick and Lynne Cheney screamed foul when the Democratic candidate mentioned their gay daughter. But for gays and lesbians, what is most outrageous is the Cheneys' outrage.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Dave Cullen



Oct. 15, 2004  |  America's most notorious lesbian is back.

In the final presidential debate, John Kerry responded to a gay-rights question with a reference to Vice President Dick Cheney's gay daughter. The vice president's wife, Lynne Cheney, immediately went ballistic, condemning Kerry in her most moralistic tones as "not a good man" for the "cheap and tawdry political trick." By Thursday morning, it was all over the news networks, with the vice president also impugning Kerry's character and describing himself as "a pretty angry father." CNN's Wolf Blitzer gravely speculated that the controversy could dominate the entire post-debate landscape. Well, yeah, if the Cheneys -- supposedly outraged by the violation of their daughter's privacy -- get their way and keep the issue burning brightly in the public eye.

 
How incredibly sad for Mary Cheney, the lesbian in question. And not for the reasons that her parents and the pundits have been screaming about.

First, let's dispense with the comic aspects of the parental indignation:


Mary Cheney has been happily out of the closet for at least a decade, so John Kerry was hardly dragging her out against her will.
She spent the late '90s working as a veritable professional lesbian, as gay and lesbian corporate relations manager for Coors Brewing Co.
Dick Cheney himself has been using her sexuality on the campaign trail. Click here to watch a Human Rights Campaign ad with him on the stump on Aug. 24, 2004: "Lynne and I have a gay daughter ... "
The Bush-Cheney administration has shamelessly used homosexuality as a wedge issue, never hesitating to play the sodomite card when it serves their political ends.
John Edwards brought up Mary Cheney in response to a similar gay-rights question just eight days earlier in the veep debate. Dick Cheney responded by thanking him for his kind remarks.

Maybe Dick's indignation began later that night watching "The Daily Show." Jon Stewart poked fun at Edwards for opportunistically screaming GAY DAUGHTER! GAY DAUGHTER! to any homophobe out there who still hadn't heard about it.

It didn't go much further, but twice in one week was apparently too much -- for the Cheneys and for the media. The conservative cable clones began piling on. Even some liberals have been squeamish about the Democrats invoking Mary's lesbianism so shamelessly.

But they just don't get it. Much of the gay population is incensed. At the media.

Let's get one thing straight. It is not an insult to call a proudly public lesbian a lesbian. It's an insult to gasp when someone calls her a lesbian. That's how all the gays I have spoken to the past 24 hours perceived the press response. You're embarrassed for us. And it's infuriating.

Consider the way a paraplegic or a blind person feels when you act just a little too sympathetic about their "plight." We don't want your pity! Can you see how insulting it is?

The only thing offensive about Kerry's statement to us gay people was that he had to pause mid-sentence and gulp and sputter the terrifying word out: "Dick Cheney's daughter, who is ... a lesbian ..."

It's not a dirty word, John. And why is the press reacting like he exposed a breast?

The most outlandish exchange I've seen came in a scholarly Fox News debate Thursday -- seriously, it happens -- over the candidates' linguistic styles, of all things. The conservative guy, Eric Dezenhall, charged that "the invocation of Vice President Cheney's daughter's lesbianism was sort of a radioactive concept. The words lesbian in a presidential debate -- even if you don't mean it to be mean -- came across as off the grid, and very, very shrill."

Is he serious? If it's innocent little gay people you think you're protecting here, listen up! Gay people do not consider the invocation of our existence radioactive. It's the comparisons to plutonium that drive us nuts. We are not toxic.

A gay reader e-mailed to lament that, "I've heard my own mom say that she wished there was a 'nicer' word" than "lesbian."

At least he didn't have Lynne Cheney for a mom.

Her response was truly deplorable. If Mary Cheney is distraught this morning, it's likely her mother is the cause. And it's perplexing to millions of gay Americans today why the press has not grasped how horrible she acted toward Mary Wednesday night.

Maybe it's understandable. Most of you out there have never been a homo. Let me share a personal story to illustrate how this works for a gay person. I came out to my parents when I was in my 30s -- they were shocked, then understanding, but also a little queasy about it. The queasiness was much less about them accepting me as it was their friends accepting them.

That's the part that stings. No matter how old you get.

Once you're happily out of the closet a few years, you don't bat an eye at someone hearing you're gay. Even on national television. Even if your father's the vice president. (Especially if your father's the vice president -- don't you think she's used to it by now?)

What rips your heart out is when someone close to you denies your sexuality in public. Or shudders at the mention of it, so you can see how desperately they want to.

It may sound like a subtle implication to a straight person -- clearly it does; even the most liberal straight pundits appear oblivious to it -- but a gay person hears it scream out loud and clear. You people still feel there's something to be ashamed of here.

One of the happiest days of my life came when one of the old ladies at my mom's Catholic bridge club mentioned what a nice young husband I'd make. My mother, in her 60s by then, laughed it off. "I don't think that's going to happen," she said. "He's gay."

I was stunned when I heard the story. It had taken her years to get to that point. And it meant everything to me. She didn't care what the bridge ladies thought. She cared more about me.

I doubt very much that Mary Cheney gives a rat's ass if some church lady in Idaho knows she's gay. But her mother cringing at the church lady knowing -- that's gotta hurt like hell.

[afleitch]

I agree with Elcorazon. I'm gay, i know its not a choice and you can't change it. And If I was Mary Cheney i'd be deeply offended by my parents trying to make poiltical capital out of it. And why on earth will no one ask Mary Cheney what she feels? Cheney uses his daughters lesbianism to his advantage when he needs to.

[NHPolitico]

ABC's The Note mentions how it was the topic of most every morning show...

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[J. J.]

1980 - Jimmy Carter raises a question relating to his daughter in the debate and loses.

2004  John Kerry raises a question relating to someone elses daughter and loses?

Symmetry?

(as Zathros would say.)

[Light Touch]

I think this will have some impact on undecideds.  I've heard from a few people who thought it was an unnecessarily personal tactic.

I agreed, but I always thought JFK was a s***, so whatever.

[NHPolitico]

Kerry's calling out of Mary will cause him to lose New Jersey. I'm calling it!

:-)

[dougrhess]

My memory is imperfect and fading.. but...

Kerry's first wife suffered from depression if I recall.

In the context of a question related to health care, would it have been "correct" for Bush to say..

"Senator, since your ex-wife suffered from depression, you know what I speak of when I say..blah...blah about mental health...."

A perfect point no one has responded to

Still waiting

Simple. Is his ex-wife in politics and public life? Are medical records really the same at sexual orientation? Only if you think it's sick or shameful. Come on. Gay people thought it was fine, it's only some wishwashy or homophobe republicans that are bothered, and some queasy straight people who don't want to think about it or hear the L word.

Answered you?

[NHPolitico]

Washington Post:

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Also, Kerry had to distance himself in Iowa from a Mary Beth Cahill comment that Mary was "fair game" in the campaign. Kerry said he disagreed with her characterization. The funny part? John Edwards called Mary "fair game" politically, too!

[NHPolitico]

More detail on the cited ABC News tracking poll:

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[Pollwatch99]

Washington Post:

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Also, Kerry had to distance himself in Iowa from a Mary Beth Cahill comment that Mary was "fair game" in the campaign. Kerry said he disagreed with her characterization. The funny part? John Edwards called Mary "fair game" politically, too!

Intentional political stunt and refusal to take accountability by the esteemed Senator from Massachutes

[dougrhess]

Washington Post:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Also, Kerry had to distance himself in Iowa from a Mary Beth Cahill comment that Mary was "fair game" in the campaign. Kerry said he disagreed with her characterization. The funny part? John Edwards called Mary "fair game" politically, too!

Intentional political stunt and refusal to take accountability by the esteemed Senator from Massachutes

Look, Mary Cheney used to do public relations to the gay community for Coors. If she's willing to use her sexual orientation in a business position and bring her partner to events, she's obviously not only not closeted, but views it as just who she is. The only people who are upset are people who are quesy about it.  If it was somehow "rude" wouldn't gays be up in arms??

Heck, Adrew Sullivan agrees: http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php

(Oh, Vorlan, still waiting....)

[Pollwatch99]

Washington Post:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Also, Kerry had to distance himself in Iowa from a Mary Beth Cahill comment that Mary was "fair game" in the campaign. Kerry said he disagreed with her characterization. The funny part? John Edwards called Mary "fair game" politically, too!

Intentional political stunt and refusal to take accountability by the esteemed Senator from Massachutes

Look, Mary Cheney used to do public relations to the gay community for Coors. If she's willing to use her sexual orientation in a business position and bring her partner to events, she's obviously not only not closeted, but views it as just who she is. The only people who are upset are people who are quesy about it.  If it was somehow "rude" wouldn't gays be up in arms??

Heck, Adrew Sullivan agrees: http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php

(Oh, Vorlan, still waiting....)

Do you really believe that if Edwards had a lesbian daughter and Bush had brought that up in the answer, it wouldn't have been a firestorm?

That would be a real hard sell

[NHPolitico]

Mary isn't even a public personality in the campaign like Liz is. People didn't like it when Chelsea was used for political fodder by conservatives. They could care less which side of the spectrum does it.  People want others to respect their own privacy and ask themselves how they'd feel if members of their family had their privacy stolen by a candidate-- and so they react strongly against such a move.  It's not good etiquette anyway-- which makes Kerry's remarks more deliberate. Kerry was raised among the hoity-toity and knows such a comment would be outrageous at a dinner party.  It would be like mentioning the childhood obesity epidemic and saying that someone at the table probably has some particular viewpoint on it since their kid is a tub of lard. It would be totally shocking in Kerry's social circle to do that.

[khirkhib]

I don't think it should be.  The question was is it a choice to be gay. Since it is not it is meerly who you are and there is no reason to be upset about it either way.