Next Pope After Benedict...

[12th Doctor]

I hope that it will be a less reactionary and fundies-liking one.

Contrary to popular belief, John Paul II was not more liberal in any degree than Benedict

That's correct.

I would go further and say that, while Benedict has brought back a few of the traditions, his pontificate has been, on the whole, more liberal in terms of how he has dealt with both political and internal Church issues than JPII.

[Psychic Octopus]

http://www.popes-and-papacy.com/popes_and_the_papacy/2008/12/next-pope-my-papabili-list-for-2009.html

Napier would be an excellent choice, I think.

Your a Jew. No one cares what you think on this matter.


(Just kidding, lol)

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

I hope that it will be a less reactionary and fundies-liking one.

Contrary to popular belief, John Paul II was not more liberal in any degree than Benedict

That's correct.

I would go further and say that, while Benedict has brought back a few of the traditions, his pontificate has been, on the whole, more liberal in terms of how he has dealt with both political and internal Church issues than JPII.

Who cares of the facts? Today just the image is important. JP II had a more open image than B XVI, that's all. I'd personally go through this too, I'm not an expert at all of the track records of popes but psychologically JP II gave the image to be more open minded to modernity, more tolerant and more able to dialog than B XVI.

Other than that, I think it's a bit too early to bury BXVI now, and as long as his carrier and the consequences of this one are not all known, I find it a bit useless to wonder about it...

But, well, if the purpose here is to do that...

Some spoke about a black one...

Some spoke about one from America...

...

...

...

Obama!!!



nah, well, there could be an Obama effect though...

[Hans-im-Glück]

It's not important the next Pope come from Europe, North America, Asia, South America or Africa, he is black or white.  All cardinals have been selected by John Paul II and Benedict XVI and they are all very conservative. No this isn't enough, they are all reactionary. The successor will not be better.

[12th Doctor]

It's not important the next Pope come from Europe, North America, Asia, South America or Africa, he is black or white.  All cardinals have been selected by John Paul II and Benedict XVI and they are all very conservative. No this isn't enough, they are all reactionary. The successor will not be better.

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=101637.msg2136337#msg2136337

As I pointed out in this post, historically that has never mattered.

[Hans-im-Glück]

The Catholic church needs a new John XXIII. He wasn't liberal, but he was open for new ideas. I don't see this man

[12th Doctor]

No, the Church needs a new Paul VI.  A brilliant person who is an expert at contextual scripture translation, is open to old ideas (from actually understanding scripture) and knows where to draw the line.

Behind Pius XII, best Pope of the 20th century.

[Psychic Octopus]

Behind Pius XII, best Pope of the 20th century.

[12th Doctor]

Behind Pius XII, best Pope of the 20th century.

What are you questioning, exactly?

[Scam of God]

I'd like to firebomb the next Pope.

[Psychic Octopus]

Behind Pius XII, best Pope of the 20th century.

What are you questioning, exactly?

I was questioning why you think he is the best this century. Sorry if I didn't elaborate, I was just curious.

[12th Doctor]

Behind Pius XII, best Pope of the 20th century.

What are you questioning, exactly?

I was questioning why you think he is the best this century. Sorry if I didn't elaborate, I was just curious.

180,000 Jewish lives saved, not to mention the number of Allied POW's that the Vatican hid away.  He helped the Allies gather intelligence on the fascists.  He bitterly opposed communism when it was the Catholics who were going to take the brunt of it (clearly showing that his concern in WWII was not a backlash against the Church, but rather against the Jews being hidden in the churches).  He literally wrote the book (or at least the letter) on opposing Antisemitism... which is another reason why he never "spoke out"... in the context of the time, everyone knew where he and the Vatican stood, and thus he had no power to convince anyone any further.  In the 1930's, he was one of the first people to realize the threat that Hitler posed to the world.  He was theologically solid.  He was the first pope to make any serious effort to expand the College of Cardinals outside of Europe, and ended Italian domination of the College.

I'm sure I am forgetting some reasons.

The smears that have been presented concerning him since the 1960's are literally based on fiction, and started out as a backlash by the Left against him, because he had been so outspoken about communism.  They then spread, and were expounded upon, by the anti-Catholic movement in all corners.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Soulty, why was Pius XII not as outspoken as Pius XI?  Or is that merely a misunderstanding on my part?

[12th Doctor]

Soulty, why was Pius XII not as outspoken as Pius XI?  Or is that merely a misunderstanding on my part?

The conventional view that people take today is that he was scared, apathetic, or downright complacent.

This view would have, and indeed, did seem totally out of context in the 1940's.  After the war, Pius was praised as a hero by the Allies and the Jews.

The reasons for his "silence" during the war, and understand, the silence of the Vatican was not total, are multi-tiered.

First, because Pius XI had been outspoken, the position of the Church was clear.  The Church opposed antisemitism, and it was a known fact that Pius XII was close to Pius XI on this view.  It was also know that the Church was opposed to totalitarian regimes in general.  People knew this before Pius XII became pope, and it didn't seem to change their attitude much towards the fascist regimes in their countries.

Mit brennender Sorge (which did bring swift punishment from the Nazis against priests who were more enthusiastic about supporting it) was aimed directly at the German people, against the Nazi regime.  Obviously, it had Pius XI's approval, but it was also edited, and disseminated through the country by Eugenio Pacelli, who would become Pius XII.  If that level of direct condemnation wasn't going to work, and clearly it hadn't, then there was no reason to expect that any other statement's wouldn't simply be an empty gesture, especially when there was no guarantee that anyone across the Alps would even hear them.

Most serious scholars, who aren't just out to make anti-Catholic waves, would have to agree that the Catholic Church's record in opposing Nazism before the outbreak of the war was pretty solid.  There were certainly ardent fascist among the bishops and even the College, but the response from Rome, and most of the bishops in Germany was solidly against the Nazi current.

Secondly, while concerns about mass reprisals against Catholics were probably unfounded for the time being (though we know of no less than two assassination plots drawn up by the Nazis against their supposed friend Pius XII), but throughout the war, Catholic institutions, including the Vatican, were hiding an estimated 400,000 Jews.  Any call from Pius might have been used as an excuse for the Germans to raid monasteries, churches, orphanages, etc, known to be hiding Jews.

Unfortunately, even without an excuse, only 180,000 of those being hidden made it to see the Allied forces arrive.  Indeed, much of the time, the S.S. would clean out these places a few days before the Allies showed up, having known all along that they were harboring them.

Interesting story, as I mentioned, something like 3,000 Jews were hidden within the walls of the Vatican itself.  The Chief Rabbi of Rome was one of them, and he frequently held meetings with Pius in the popes' private bathroom during the course of the war, where they would do their best to exchange information.  After the war, the Rabbi converted to Catholicism and took "Eugenio" as his baptismal name, as a sign of his appreciation.

Third, the Vatican was at the center of a massive intelligence operation.  In particular, we know that the Vatican gave the Axis powers a ton of information on Allied forces during the invasion of Italy, all of which was completely wrong, all of which the Axis seems to have bought.  The Vatican cooperated, in its limited capacity, to get intelligence reports to the British ambassador.  It is thought by many that the information on the concentration camps that Churchill took to Roosevelt (this being the infamous meeting where Roosevelt told Churchill that "if I make this war about Jews, no one will want to fight it"), was gathered by the Vatican network throughout Europe.

In addition to hiding Jews, and others the Nazis were sending to the camps, they were also hiding Allied POW's.

Nazi records also indicate (and I wish I knew the title of the book I just read this in... perhaps I could dig it up here) that Pius was, most likely in vain, attempting to agitate Portugal, Spain, Italy and the Vichy governments into forming an anti-German coalition.  Whether true or not, the Nazis took these reports very seriously.

----------

Really, there is no basis for the notion that Pius was a Nazi collaborator.  The direct evidence that people like to see for how he opposed the Nazis is there, it just doesn't slap you in the face.

What would have been accomplished by him speaking out?  Not much, if past is prologue. He might have just gotten more Jews killed, but if people weren't convinced to revolt against the Nazis in 1939, then they wouldn't have been in 1942, either.

Meanwhile a lot of things did happen behind the scenes.

[Wiggle Your Yummy Moist Preggers Cake Ben Shapiro]

Hopefully not another Nazi Pope.

[TJ in Oregon]

Hopefully not another Nazi Pope.

Really I'm not sure what else to say to this.

[Lincoln Republican]

Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana, president of the Vatican's pontifical council for justice and peace

Cardinal Marc Ouellet, prefect of the Congregation for Bishops, former Archbishop of Quebec

Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria

Cardinal Angelo Scola, Archbishop of Milan


 

[Frodo]

Hopefully not another Nazi Pope.

You're not helping the anti-Catholic cause.  

Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana, president of the Vatican's pontifical council for justice and peace

Cardinal Marc Ouellet, prefect of the Congregation for Bishops, former Archbishop of Quebec

Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria

Cardinal Angelo Scola, Archbishop of Milan

Which of these four do you think are the most likely to become the next Pope?

[Tokugawa Sexgod Ieyasu]

Scola or Turkson, of those four. Arinze is so old that he can't even vote and I'm told Ouellet's made some enemies.

[Lincoln Republican]

Hopefully not another Nazi Pope.

You're not helping the anti-Catholic cause.  

Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana, president of the Vatican's pontifical council for justice and peace

Cardinal Marc Ouellet, prefect of the Congregation for Bishops, former Archbishop of Quebec

Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria

Cardinal Angelo Scola, Archbishop of Milan

Which of these four do you think are the most likely to become the next Pope?

Of these, I would go with Cardinal Scola.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

http://www.popes-and-papacy.com/popes_and_the_papacy/2008/12/next-pope-my-papabili-list-for-2009.html

Napier would be an excellent choice, I think.

Your a Jew. No one cares what you think on this matter.


(Just kidding, lol)

Yup.  Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism.

Sad thing is there are some people would agree with that.

[DC Al Fine]

Hopefully not another Nazi Pope.

Really I'm not sure what else to say to this.

Best leave the bigots be.

[DemPGH]

Oddsmakers seem to be favoring Scola and Turkson. I'm not the expert on it, but I think historically speaking to be Archbishop of Milan would put one in about as good a position as any to become pope.

Of course there have been African popes before, but from very northern Africa, and in the early centuries.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If it is an Italian, it will be Scola.  Indeed, if it is a European, it likely will be Scola.  But I think there is an excellent chance the conclave will go for a Latin American.  Either Braz de Aviz od Brazil or Sandri of Argentina are to my mind the choices I would bet on. Turkson has a chance, but too many people are betting on him, so the odds are not worth accepting for a wager.

[Mr. Morden]

Latest odds from Paddy Power:

Peter Turkson (Ghana), age 64: 9/4 odds
Angelo Scola (Italy), age 71: 7/2 odds
Marc Ouellet (Canada), age 68: 5/1 odds
Tarcisio Bertone (Italy), age 78: 6/1 odds
Leonardo Sandri (Argentina), age 69: 10/1 odds
Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga (Honduras), age 70: 12/1 odds