What's the deal with Vermont?

[memphis]

It's nearly all-white, has no big cities, and is mountainous. Politically, it is nothing like West Virginia or the Ozarks, which have similar characteristics. The population hasn't grown that much recently, so there was either a massive shift among the population or a bunch of Republicans moved away and were replaced by liberals. What the fcuk?

[Verily]

It's nearly all-white, has no big cities, and is mountainous. Politically, it is nothing like West Virginia or the Ozarks, which have similar characteristics. The population hasn't grown that much recently, so there was either a massive shift among the population or a bunch of Republicans moved away and were replaced by liberals. What the fcuk?

Answer: The Republicans always were liberals. The big difference from Appalachia is in ethnic origin (English and French rather than Scots-Irish and German) and religious affiliation (Anglican and Congregationalist rather than Baptist and Methodist).

Except where they are Mormons, people of English ancestry are almost universally social liberals in the US, and those who aren't also ultra-wealthy (e.g., Vermonters) tend to be economic leftists as well.

[War on Want]

Vermont really isn't that confusing to me. It is a cultural thing, the Republicans position wise have shifted as well to the point where not much is politically popular there either but Vermont strikes me as one of those states that hates anything theocratic/populist and also hates anything southern. The GOP has become the party of all those things, while the Democrats have become very favorable on social issues and somewhat favorable on economic issues.

Oh and everything Verily said is right too, the WASP's in Vermont fled Christianity in large numbers as well so basically there is absolutley no appeal in the Republican Party. I am pretty sure that the WASP's used to be more conservative economically than this but Clinton and the DLC definitley made the Democrats more appealing to a townies.

[Badger]

I seem to recall in the late 80's or early 90's that, conversely to the yuppie (young urban professionals), Vermont was encountering a huge influx of 'marpies' (middle-aged rural persons) who were overwhelmingly well-educated social liberals who relocated from the big cities in New England. 20 years later they are setting the local cultural trends and mores rather than being newcomers to town.

[Bandit3 the Worker]

It's nearly all-white, has no big cities, and is mountainous. Politically, it is nothing like West Virginia or the Ozarks, which have similar characteristics.

West Virginia could have become a "Vermont South", had the DLC not flushed that opportunity clean down the toilet.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

There's interesting thing:

Even while Vermont solidly voted GOP in presidential races, the local Republican politicians (there were just a few Democrats there and Democratic Party in Vermont was even more weak than Democratc in Idaho today) were really liberal: George Aiken (called by conservatives "this communist from Vermont"), Robert Stafford, Jim Jeffords and many others. They shared with person like Reagan or Goldwater only party affilation.

Democratic or Republican, Vermont always has been fairly progressive state, despite not having big cities, mixed population etc. etc.

[Alexander Hamilton]

It's nearly all-white, has no big cities, and is mountainous. Politically, it is nothing like West Virginia or the Ozarks, which have similar characteristics. The population hasn't grown that much recently, so there was either a massive shift among the population or a bunch of Republicans moved away and were replaced by liberals. What the fcuk?

Answer: The Republicans always were liberals.

Exactly. Remember that douche Jim Jeffords?

[ChrisJG777]

It's nearly all-white, has no big cities, and is mountainous. Politically, it is nothing like West Virginia or the Ozarks, which have similar characteristics. The population hasn't grown that much recently, so there was either a massive shift among the population or a bunch of Republicans moved away and were replaced by liberals. What the fcuk?

Answer: The Republicans always were liberals.

Exactly. Remember that douche Jim Jeffords?

No, but I do remember this particularly charming and upstanding chap of the same name though.    (Oh come on!  That question was just screaming out for this sort of answer!)

[nclib]

Except where they are Mormons, people of English ancestry are almost universally social liberals in the US, and those who aren't also ultra-wealthy (e.g., Vermonters) tend to be economic leftists as well.

Interesting, I wouldn't have thought that, since ethnic whites have tended to be more liberal than whites from the British Isles, esp. than whites have ancestors have been in America for more than a century (though this is lessening). Why do you think that is?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Cultural stuff, maybe also better education. Culturally New England is the most European-looking region of the USA. That doesn't mean europeans are leftists, just that European right is not as extremist as the GOP. Vermont could be far closer if the GOP was Eisenhower's one and not Gingrich's one.

[Verily]

Except where they are Mormons, people of English ancestry are almost universally social liberals in the US, and those who aren't also ultra-wealthy (e.g., Vermonters) tend to be economic leftists as well.

Interesting, I wouldn't have thought that, since ethnic whites have tended to be more liberal than whites from the British Isles, esp. than whites have ancestors have been in America for more than a century (though this is lessening). Why do you think that is?

That's... uh... simply wrong. In the modern sense of the word "liberal", applied to social values, the English (and Scottish and Welsh) contingent has been the most liberal group in the US since sometime not long after the Revolutionary War (basically, once there were more "normal" English than Puritan and other ultra-religious English). They were, for example, the group that led the charge in abolition in the North during the mid-1800s, and all of the great suffragettes of the 19th century were English or Scottish. Of course, most Southern slave-owners were also of English stock, but the South had little ethnic diversity in its free population at the time anyway (still doesn't, really), and the Scots-Irish petty farmers were certainly no less supportive of slavery than the English plantation owners despite not owning slaves themselves.

Economically, of course, the Irish, the Scots-Irish, the Germans, the Italians, the Scandinavians, etc. were further to the left because they were poor where many of the long-time residents were wealthy or at least well-established and middle class by the standards of their time. Over time, this has muted substantially as nearly all white immigrant groups today have achieved overall "middle class" status. (The exceptions are pretty much limited to Eastern Europeans, many of whom are pretty economically rightist anyway because they come from ex-communist countries.) The economic transformation of the English is harder to trace, but my guess is that it has to do with the drastic decline in economic standing of the ethnically English community over the course of the late 19th through mid-20th centuries, when they fell from controlling most or all significant industries to having only a slightly larger stake in corporate America than their share of the population.

Vermont is not a wealthy state anyway, and never has been. Nor has it ever been a site of major corporate structures. But the Congregationalist tradition meant Vermont always had a leftist/communalist streak. Although it may have disliked the urban-left policies supported by immigrant communities (being decidedly rural), it was not inherently rightist, either.

[WillK]

It's nearly all-white, has no big cities, and is mountainous. Politically, it is nothing like West Virginia or the Ozarks, which have similar characteristics. The population hasn't grown that much recently, so there was either a massive shift among the population or a bunch of Republicans moved away and were replaced by liberals. What the fcuk?

Culturally and economically I dont think Vermont and West Virginia or the Ozarks have similar characteristcs at all.  Seems to me that the sift wasnt in the people of Vermont but in the nature of the political parties.  Exhibit A:  Jim Jeffords.

[Husker]

Vermont strikes me as being a fiercely independent state with a strong tolerance for alternative lifestyles. I get the impression that New England states such as VT, NH, and ME vote democrat much more because they believe the democrats will interfere less in their personal lives than the GOP.

[DownWithTheLeft]

Vermont strikes me as being a fiercely independent state with a strong tolerance for alternative lifestyles. I get the impression that New England states such as VT, NH, and ME vote democrat much more because they believe the democrats will interfere less in their personal lives than the GOP.

I get that feeling too.  I also believe it has to do with Vermont not really knowing diversity or poverty.  They seem to think that communism can work because they one large homogenous blob of middle-class white people.  If they had areas that differed, those areas would be liberal but the rest of the state would shift to being more conservative

[War on Want]

Vermont strikes me as being a fiercely independent state with a strong tolerance for alternative lifestyles. I get the impression that New England states such as VT, NH, and ME vote democrat much more because they believe the democrats will interfere less in their personal lives than the GOP.

I get that feeling too.  I also believe it has to do with Vermont not really knowing diversity or poverty.  They seem to think that communism can work because they one large homogenous blob of middle-class white people.  If they had areas that differed, those areas would be liberal but the rest of the state would shift to being more conservative

Is that a joke? No one in Vermont is even close to being communistic.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Vermont strikes me as being a fiercely independent state with a strong tolerance for alternative lifestyles. I get the impression that New England states such as VT, NH, and ME vote democrat much more because they believe the democrats will interfere less in their personal lives than the GOP.

I get that feeling too.  I also believe it has to do with Vermont not really knowing diversity or poverty.  They seem to think that communism can work because they one large homogenous blob of middle-class white people.  If they had areas that differed, those areas would be liberal but the rest of the state would shift to being more conservative

Is that a joke? No one in Vermont is even close to being communistic.

[DWTL] YAH WELL LOL GO SLIT YOUR WRISTS IN EMO CAMP [/DWTL]

[Antonio the Sixth]

Vermont strikes me as being a fiercely independent state with a strong tolerance for alternative lifestyles. I get the impression that New England states such as VT, NH, and ME vote democrat much more because they believe the democrats will interfere less in their personal lives than the GOP.

I get that feeling too.  I also believe it has to do with Vermont not really knowing diversity or poverty.  They seem to think that communism can work because they one large homogenous blob of middle-class white people.  If they had areas that differed, those areas would be liberal but the rest of the state would shift to being more conservative

Is that a joke? No one in Vermont is even close to being communistic.

[DariusNJ]

I agree with a lot of the stuff said here, but I think that Vermont's proximity to Quebec  has had an effect on its politics.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Cultural stuff, maybe also better education. Culturally New England is the most European-looking region of the USA. That doesn't mean europeans are leftists, just that European right is not as extremist as the GOP. Vermont could be far closer if the GOP was Eisenhower's one and not Gingrich's one.

That's a big point, Antonio! Many European rightist, most notably regular Christian Democrats, in the U.S. would be considered rather liberal, while "mainstream conservatives" in the U.S., such as DeMint, Sessions and others in Europe would be fringe, crazy far-right wingers on Le Pen mode.

[DownWithTheLeft]

Vermont strikes me as being a fiercely independent state with a strong tolerance for alternative lifestyles. I get the impression that New England states such as VT, NH, and ME vote democrat much more because they believe the democrats will interfere less in their personal lives than the GOP.

I get that feeling too.  I also believe it has to do with Vermont not really knowing diversity or poverty.  They seem to think that communism can work because they one large homogenous blob of middle-class white people.  If they had areas that differed, those areas would be liberal but the rest of the state would shift to being more conservative

Is that a joke? No one in Vermont is even close to being communistic.

For a state that is proud to have Ben & Jerry's as their native sons and Bernie Sanders as their senators, the fact you could claim they do not have communistic tendicies is absurd

[ag]

Vermont strikes me as being a fiercely independent state with a strong tolerance for alternative lifestyles. I get the impression that New England states such as VT, NH, and ME vote democrat much more because they believe the democrats will interfere less in their personal lives than the GOP.

I get that feeling too.  I also believe it has to do with Vermont not really knowing diversity or poverty.  They seem to think that communism can work because they one large homogenous blob of middle-class white people.  If they had areas that differed, those areas would be liberal but the rest of the state would shift to being more conservative

Is that a joke? No one in Vermont is even close to being communistic.

For a state that is proud to have Ben & Jerry's as their native sons and Bernie Sanders as their senators, the fact you could claim they do not have communistic tendicies is absurd

Would you mind sharing w/ us your personal definition of "communism"?

[hcallega]

Vermont has some socialist leanings, not communist. There is a big difference.

The biggest difference is that socialism is an economic system, whereas communism is an economic and socialist system. While they both seek centralized national control over industry, communism also seeks state control over property, as well as it's distribution. This is a huge difference. Bernie Sanders is a socialist, but would never support the government taking everyone's businesses and homes away.

Other differences (since you obviously have no idea what you're talking about):
-Socialism believes that the distribution of goods should be determined by an individual's production efforts, while communism believes that it should be determined by need.

-Communism is entirely based on the belief that capitalism is evil and must be destroyed, preferably as soon as possible. Socialism on the other hand believes that capitalism can simply be phased out over time (this is why some think Obama is a socialist, as they believe his policies are an attempt to slowly undo the core of capitalism). Also, many socialists believe that capitalism is incorporable with capitalism, as long as the results are made entirely fair.

-Finally (another big one), Socialism believes that the economy should be controlled by as many as possible, so that institutions like big business and the elite cannot keep all the benefits for themselves. Communism on the other hand believes that the economy should be controlled by as few people as possible, which is the biggest reason why communism has always failed, because it leads to total power in the hands of a few.

So there ya go. Vermont may have socialist leanings, but believe me it is nowhere near communism.

[DownWithTheLeft]

Thank you for proving my point, everything you just said about communism sums Vermont up to a tee.  Shame too, such a nice state

[Landslide Lyndon]

Thank you for proving my point, everything you just said about communism sums Vermont up to a tee.  Shame too, such a nice state

It's a bigger shame for New Jersey that produced a dunderhead like you.

[hcallega]

It's the middle of the night in a shady coat room in the Capitol. Sitting around the table are Vermont's congressional delegation: Pat Leahy, Jim Jeffords, and Bernie Sanders, all smoking cigars.

Leahy: I just wish there was a way for me to become committee chairman again, so I could continue to pave the way for the revolution of the proletariat! Then I will be more famous then those other Irish-Catholics; Dodd and Kennedy. Damn them!

Jeffords: I've Got it! Since I'm basically a socialist already, I'll just join the Democrats so you can do whatever you want! And then I'll retire because I'm just like that.

Sanders: As leader of the proleteriat I will run for your seat, because all of the communists here will vote me in so I can do communist things like oppose warantless wiretapping, big military, and strongly support civil liberties, you know, things which authoritarian communist regimes always like.

Leahy: Excellent! Now all we have to do is kill Jim Douglas and then we can take over!

Jeffords: Yes, and then dumb-*** conservatives from New Jersey will be the only ones in the way from total world domination!