Flat tax - the CONs' dream. Would they adopt the following?

[Shira]

Flat tax could be a good idea if you deduct some amount and tax the remainder in a flat rate.

Take the family total income $i and subtract from it $d  (deduction) per each family member. On the remainder put a p% tax rate which translates into $x. If the income level of the family is under $L per family member then the negative tax would be as if the income is $L per family member.

i = total gross income.
n = family size
d = deduction per family member
p = the flat tax rate
x = the  tax in $.

The algebra of it is simple:
x= (i - n*d)*p/100      

Examples (let’s assume a family of 4)
d = $15,000, p = 50%, n=4 and L = $5,000 ( L becomes relevant in this example only when the income is under $20,000 )  

If gross income is 200k, tax will be 70k and net income 130k
If gross income is 120k, tax will be 30k and net income 90k
If gross income is 80k, tax will be 10k and net income 70k
If gross income is 60k, tax will be 0 and net income 60k (no tax)
If gross income is 40k, tax will be (-10k) and net income 50k (a negative tax)
If gross income is 20k, tax will be (-20k) and net income 40k (a negative tax)
If gross income is 0k, tax will be (-20k) and net income 20k (a negative tax with ‘adjusted’ income)
Finally (an extreme and a rare example):
If gross income is 1M, tax will be 470k and net income 530k

And what about Social Security?
Believe it or not, but I am in favor of abolishing the SS as well as the welfare system,
BUT ONLY IF (and I reiterate ONLY IF) a taxation method like the example above is implemented.

For people eligible for SS, simply change D to 2*D for example.
Then for a family of two retirees, who do not have any additional income the tax will be:
(0 – 2*2*15,000)*50/100 = -30,000
and the net income will be 0 – (-30,000) = 30,000

[12th Doctor]

I'm not in favor of a flat tax.  I think it is a stupid idea.  I favor the graduated tax system.

[??????????]

A National sales tax is far better.

www.fairtax.org

[Lunar]

Sales tax would have to be graduated to some extent too.  You assign each item a "luxury" value from 1-10.  You'd pay maximum tax for buying a yaht but no tax for buying bread.

I don't like the flat tax because it shifts a greater burden onto the poor and middle class.

[12th Doctor]

Sales tax would have to be graduated to some extent too.  You assign each item a "luxury" value from 1-10.  You'd pay maximum tax for buying a yaht but no tax for buying bread.

I don't like the flat tax because it shifts a greater burden onto the poor and middle class.

So what if a guy who makes $25,000 a has saved to buy his girlfreind a nice engagement ring, should he too have to pay a huge tax?

[??????????]

Sales tax would have to be graduated to some extent too.  You assign each item a "luxury" value from 1-10.  You'd pay maximum tax for buying a yaht but no tax for buying bread.

I don't like the flat tax because it shifts a greater burden onto the poor and middle class.

So what if a guy who makes $25,000 a has saved to buy his girlfreind a nice engagement ring, should he too have to pay a huge tax?

Ten percent maximum.

[Lunar]

Sales tax would have to be graduated to some extent too.  You assign each item a "luxury" value from 1-10.  You'd pay maximum tax for buying a yaht but no tax for buying bread.

I don't like the flat tax because it shifts a greater burden onto the poor and middle class.

So what if a guy who makes $25,000 a has saved to buy his girlfreind a nice engagement ring, should he too have to pay a huge tax?

Certain scenarios like that perhaps can be taken care of.  It's still better than that guy having to pay full tax on bread and butter.

[??????????]

Sales tax would have to be graduated to some extent too.  You assign each item a "luxury" value from 1-10.  You'd pay maximum tax for buying a yaht but no tax for buying bread.

I don't like the flat tax because it shifts a greater burden onto the poor and middle class.

So what if a guy who makes $25,000 a has saved to buy his girlfreind a nice engagement ring, should he too have to pay a huge tax?

Certain scenarios like that perhaps can be taken care of.  It's still better than that guy having to pay full tax on bread and butter.

Food would be exempt from a national sales tax.

[opebo]

Flat tax could be a good idea if you deduct some amount and tax the remainder in a flat rate.

Take the family total income $i and subtract from it $d  (deduction) per each family member. On the remainder put a p% tax rate which translates into $x. If the income level of the family is under $L per family member then the negative tax would be as if the income is $L per family member.

i = total gross income.
n = family size
d = deduction per family member
p = the flat tax rate
x = the  tax in $.

The algebra of it is simple:
x= (i - n*d)*p/100      

Examples (let’s assume a family of 4)
d = $15,000, p = 50%, n=4 and L = $5,000 ( L becomes relevant in this example only when the income is under $20,000 )  

If gross income is 200k, tax will be 70k and net income 130k
If gross income is 120k, tax will be 30k and net income 90k
If gross income is 80k, tax will be 10k and net income 70k
If gross income is 60k, tax will be 0 and net income 60k (no tax)
If gross income is 40k, tax will be (-10k) and net income 50k (a negative tax)
If gross income is 20k, tax will be (-20k) and net income 40k (a negative tax)
If gross income is 0k, tax will be (-20k) and net income 20k (a negative tax with ‘adjusted’ income)
Finally (an extreme and a rare example):
If gross income is 1M, tax will be 470k and net income 530k

And what about Social Security?
Believe it or not, but I am in favor of abolishing the SS as well as the welfare system,
BUT ONLY IF (and I reiterate ONLY IF) a taxation method like the example above is implemented.

For people eligible for SS, simply change D to 2*D for example.
Then for a family of two retirees, who do not have any additional income the tax will be:
(0 – 2*2*15,000)*50/100 = -30,000
and the net income will be 0 – (-30,000) = 30,000

Why should there be a negative income tax?  That would involve robbing someone of their income to give it unwillingly to another.  No thanks.  Under such a system, I would - as would most rational people - refuse to work and just live off the system.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

The tax you propose wouldn't come close to funding the government.   I doubt you would even make enough money to cover the interest on our debt.

Right now the very wealthy pay about 50% of their income in all combined federal taxes...as they would under your plan.  However, under your plan, the middle class would pay a lot less, or nothing at all.  

I think the deduction for children is way too high....but you might need to raise the base rate as well.  If you did this, your system might be better than what we have now.

Yet there is still no substitute for a truly progressive income tax!

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

Flat tax could be a good idea if you deduct some amount and tax the remainder in a flat rate.

Take the family total income $i and subtract from it $d  (deduction) per each family member. On the remainder put a p% tax rate which translates into $x. If the income level of the family is under $L per family member then the negative tax would be as if the income is $L per family member.

i = total gross income.
n = family size
d = deduction per family member
p = the flat tax rate
x = the  tax in $.

The algebra of it is simple:
x= (i - n*d)*p/100      

Examples (let’s assume a family of 4)
d = $15,000, p = 50%, n=4 and L = $5,000 ( L becomes relevant in this example only when the income is under $20,000 )  

If gross income is 200k, tax will be 70k and net income 130k
If gross income is 120k, tax will be 30k and net income 90k
If gross income is 80k, tax will be 10k and net income 70k
If gross income is 60k, tax will be 0 and net income 60k (no tax)
If gross income is 40k, tax will be (-10k) and net income 50k (a negative tax)
If gross income is 20k, tax will be (-20k) and net income 40k (a negative tax)
If gross income is 0k, tax will be (-20k) and net income 20k (a negative tax with ‘adjusted’ income)
Finally (an extreme and a rare example):
If gross income is 1M, tax will be 470k and net income 530k

And what about Social Security?
Believe it or not, but I am in favor of abolishing the SS as well as the welfare system,
BUT ONLY IF (and I reiterate ONLY IF) a taxation method like the example above is implemented.

For people eligible for SS, simply change D to 2*D for example.
Then for a family of two retirees, who do not have any additional income the tax will be:
(0 – 2*2*15,000)*50/100 = -30,000
and the net income will be 0 – (-30,000) = 30,000

Why should there be a negative income tax?  That would involve robbing someone of their income to give it unwillingly to another.  No thanks.  Under such a system, I would - as would most rational people - refuse to work and just live off the system.

A family of four can't "live off the system" for $20,000 a year.  Maybe for one year in an emergency, but eventually, they would still need to work to make a decent living.  Most people would rather work than live in poverty.

[??????????]

www.fairtax.org is the answer. Read the page it does have congressional support!

[12th Doctor]

Sales tax would have to be graduated to some extent too.  You assign each item a "luxury" value from 1-10.  You'd pay maximum tax for buying a yaht but no tax for buying bread.

I don't like the flat tax because it shifts a greater burden onto the poor and middle class.

So what if a guy who makes $25,000 a has saved to buy his girlfreind a nice engagement ring, should he too have to pay a huge tax?

Ten percent maximum.

Ten percent is a lot of money for someone who isn't making much.

[12th Doctor]

Sales tax would have to be graduated to some extent too.  You assign each item a "luxury" value from 1-10.  You'd pay maximum tax for buying a yaht but no tax for buying bread.

I don't like the flat tax because it shifts a greater burden onto the poor and middle class.

So what if a guy who makes $25,000 a has saved to buy his girlfreind a nice engagement ring, should he too have to pay a huge tax?

Certain scenarios like that perhaps can be taken care of.  It's still better than that guy having to pay full tax on bread and butter.

Sure, that sounds good in theory, but you know that the government doesn't work that way in practice.  People would either find way to abuse it, or the beuocracy wouldn't take care of it, or the congress would be unable to agree, so it would get eliminated in the final bill by militant feminists who are anti-family, or someother damn thing.  

Food would be exempt.

[??????????]

Sales tax would have to be graduated to some extent too.  You assign each item a "luxury" value from 1-10.  You'd pay maximum tax for buying a yaht but no tax for buying bread.

I don't like the flat tax because it shifts a greater burden onto the poor and middle class.

So what if a guy who makes $25,000 a has saved to buy his girlfreind a nice engagement ring, should he too have to pay a huge tax?

Ten percent maximum.

Ten percent is a lot of money for someone who isn't making much.

We pay 6.5% sales tax in Florida. It's not to bad really.

[12th Doctor]

Sales tax would have to be graduated to some extent too.  You assign each item a "luxury" value from 1-10.  You'd pay maximum tax for buying a yaht but no tax for buying bread.

I don't like the flat tax because it shifts a greater burden onto the poor and middle class.

So what if a guy who makes $25,000 a has saved to buy his girlfreind a nice engagement ring, should he too have to pay a huge tax?

Ten percent maximum.

Ten percent is a lot of money for someone who isn't making much.

We pay 6.5% sales tax in Florida. It's not to bad really.

We pay 6%, but think about it you had to pay 16.5% (national+state)  That starts to add up.

[??????????]

Sales tax would have to be graduated to some extent too.  You assign each item a "luxury" value from 1-10.  You'd pay maximum tax for buying a yaht but no tax for buying bread.

I don't like the flat tax because it shifts a greater burden onto the poor and middle class.

So what if a guy who makes $25,000 a has saved to buy his girlfreind a nice engagement ring, should he too have to pay a huge tax?

Ten percent maximum.

Ten percent is a lot of money for someone who isn't making much.

We pay 6.5% sales tax in Florida. It's not to bad really.

We pay 6%, but think about it you had to pay 16.5% (national+state)  That starts to add up.

Yes but think about it. If their was no income tax we wouldn't have 30-40 to however many dollars a week taken out of our check. The costs would easily be balanced out. And you would have extra left over. Businesses however would still be required to pay income tax as that's what the income tax was originally established for.

[12th Doctor]

Sales tax would have to be graduated to some extent too.  You assign each item a "luxury" value from 1-10.  You'd pay maximum tax for buying a yaht but no tax for buying bread.

I don't like the flat tax because it shifts a greater burden onto the poor and middle class.

So what if a guy who makes $25,000 a has saved to buy his girlfreind a nice engagement ring, should he too have to pay a huge tax?

Ten percent maximum.

Ten percent is a lot of money for someone who isn't making much.

We pay 6.5% sales tax in Florida. It's not to bad really.

We pay 6%, but think about it you had to pay 16.5% (national+state)  That starts to add up.

Yes but think about it. If their was no income tax we wouldn't have 30-40 to however many dollars a week taken out of our check. The costs would easily be balanced out. And you would have extra left over. Businesses however would still be required to pay income tax as that's what the income tax was originally established for.

True, but the average person would fell more taxed, because they would acctually handle the money before they lose it.  That's how the government keeps control over people, it never even lets them see the money.

[??????????]

Sales tax would have to be graduated to some extent too.  You assign each item a "luxury" value from 1-10.  You'd pay maximum tax for buying a yaht but no tax for buying bread.

I don't like the flat tax because it shifts a greater burden onto the poor and middle class.

So what if a guy who makes $25,000 a has saved to buy his girlfreind a nice engagement ring, should he too have to pay a huge tax?

Ten percent maximum.

Ten percent is a lot of money for someone who isn't making much.

We pay 6.5% sales tax in Florida. It's not to bad really.

We pay 6%, but think about it you had to pay 16.5% (national+state)  That starts to add up.

Yes but think about it. If their was no income tax we wouldn't have 30-40 to however many dollars a week taken out of our check. The costs would easily be balanced out. And you would have extra left over. Businesses however would still be required to pay income tax as that's what the income tax was originally established for.

True, but the average person would fell more taxed, because they would acctually handle the money before they lose it.  That's how the government keeps control over people, it never even lets them see the money.

Bingo! And you know what the government does if you try to oppose their "fair tax"? They send thug IRS agents to pound down your door and illegaly order courts to steal your money from the bank. Their was one case where a couple died and they owed the IRS a large sum of money. Well the IRS came after the children for the money and they were dead serious about getting it. The stories go on and on.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

A National sales tax is far better.

www.fairtax.org

[begin saracasm]
Naw, not  regressive enough, we need a $10000 per person.

[??????????]

A National sales tax is far better.

www.fairtax.org

[begin saracasm]
Naw, not  regressive enough, we need a $10000 per person.

I wish!

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

Sales tax would have to be graduated to some extent too.  You assign each item a "luxury" value from 1-10.  You'd pay maximum tax for buying a yaht but no tax for buying bread.

I don't like the flat tax because it shifts a greater burden onto the poor and middle class.

So what if a guy who makes $25,000 a has saved to buy his girlfreind a nice engagement ring, should he too have to pay a huge tax?

Ten percent maximum.

Like some other plans I've heard, this wouldn't come close to funding the government.  Does "fairtax" actually have an estimate for how much revenue a 10% sales tax would collect?

I would guess this tax would have to be about 40% to come close to a balanced budget, if you're not taxing food or any spending up to the poverty line.

[??????????]

Sales tax would have to be graduated to some extent too.  You assign each item a "luxury" value from 1-10.  You'd pay maximum tax for buying a yaht but no tax for buying bread.

I don't like the flat tax because it shifts a greater burden onto the poor and middle class.

So what if a guy who makes $25,000 a has saved to buy his girlfreind a nice engagement ring, should he too have to pay a huge tax?

Ten percent maximum.

Like some other plans I've heard, this wouldn't come close to funding the government.  Does "fairtax" actually have an estimate for how much revenue a 10% sales tax would collect?

I would guess this tax would have to be about 40% to come close to a balanced budget, if you're not taxing food or any spending up to the poverty line.

Are you counting out income taxes on corporations? That is a HUGE sum of money that comes into the federalg government. It works perfectly fine on the state level at 4-10% depending on the state. Why do you think it would have to be 40% to work on the federal level? Why does this have support from members like Tom Delay?

[Shira]

The tax you propose wouldn't come close to funding the government.   I doubt you would even make enough money to cover the interest on our debt.

Right now the very wealthy pay about 50% of their income in all combined federal taxes...as they would under your plan.  However, under your plan, the middle class would pay a lot less, or nothing at all.  

I think the deduction for children is way too high....but you might need to raise the base rate as well.  If you did this, your system might be better than what we have now.

Yet there is still no substitute for a truly progressive income tax!

Try for example to change the d from $15,000 per family member to $10,000. The 4 members family with $60,000 would pay $10,000 and the one with the $40,000 incom won't get the negative tax but rather would pay 0.
I am talking about the method of deduction combined with flat tax.

[Shira]

Why should there be a negative income tax?  That would involve robbing someone of their income to give it unwillingly to another.  No thanks.  Under such a system, I would - as would most rational people - refuse to work and just live off the system.