Segregation

[English]

Is natural segregation an inevitable fact of life?

I live in a large city in Northern England (Leeds).
Here we have asian schools and asian neighbourhoods. There are also 'black areas' and even bars frequented by mainly black people. None of this is enforced of course. Neither is most of this for racist reasons.
Isn't it just a fact that most people from different cultures don't really mix? I have friends from ethnic backgrounds, however I have to say, they have all embraced 'western' culture rather than sticking to their own.
It's unlikely if you're a Brit or American that you'd want to befriend someone who is a devout muslim for instance. You just wouldn't have much in common. Agree?

[ShapeShifter]

Is natural segregation an inevitable fact of life?

I live in a large city in Northern England (Leeds).
Here we have asian schools and asian neighbourhoods. There are also 'black areas' and even bars frequented by mainly black people. None of this is enforced of course. Neither is most of this for racist reasons.
Isn't it just a fact that most people from different cultures don't really mix? I have friends from ethnic backgrounds, however I have to say, they have all embraced 'western' culture rather than sticking to their own.
It's unlikely if you're a Brit or American that you'd want to befriend someone who is a devout muslim for instance. You just wouldn't have much in common. Agree?

Disagree.

There are people who when they learn not to live life by fear of difference, embrace and value differences and are more eager to interact with people who are not like themselves.

[English]

My point is, a certain degree of segregation occurs naturally don't you think? It's only natural to develop friendships with people who have things in common with yourself.

[ShapeShifter]

My point is, a certain degree of segregation occurs naturally don't you think? It's only natural to develop friendships with people who have things in common with yourself.

But it is unnatural to intentionally exclude a group of people because they are different. Like attract Like but not, Like exclude dislike

[migrendel]

Segregation is far from inevitable. A committed attempt to resolve the issue, such as the integration of schools, could be greatly successful.

[Beefalow and the Consumer]

Is natural segregation an inevitable fact of life?

I live in a large city in Northern England (Leeds).
Here we have asian schools and asian neighbourhoods. There are also 'black areas' and even bars frequented by mainly black people. None of this is enforced of course. Neither is most of this for racist reasons.
Isn't it just a fact that most people from different cultures don't really mix? I have friends from ethnic backgrounds, however I have to say, they have all embraced 'western' culture rather than sticking to their own.

I'd say that people have a natural fear of those who are different.  Cultural differences can be very difficult to overcome when it comes down to day-to-day life.  But I don't think it's a bad thing for people of foreign cultures to adopt the culture of their new home.  And, in a way, hanging on to your own cultural ways in a new place *is* segregating yourself.  For example, were I to move Afghanistan and insist on continuing to speak English, wear shorts in hot weather, and eat pork, this would separate me from my new fellow countrymen.

In this country we historically have had a "melting pot" effect where people learn to live together and build a common culture.  At one time, English, Irish, German, Italian, and Polish people were very separate and distinct.  Today there's no segregation at all to speak of among White ethnic groups (as least among those who are natively born).

With Whites, Blacks and Hispanics, we still have a long way to go.  Given that we had legally enforced color-segregation in large parts of this country only a generation ago, we're not doing badly.  But it still is an uphill battle.

I had a friend tell me a story of when she was a kid, vacationing in Texas in the 80s.  She made the mistake of chatting up a couple of people of mixed Black/Hispanic origins.  She was actually verbally threatened by a cop - she was white, and Black/Hispanic Mullatos are the lowest on their "totem pole."  My friend nearly went postal on this pig, but the point is, segregationist attitudes still exist in this country.

I think, though, America is as a whole a shining example that people of different cultures *can* mix.

It's unlikely if you're a Brit or American that you'd want to befriend someone who is a devout muslim for instance. You just wouldn't have much in common. Agree?

No.  I would love to befriend a devout muslim and find out what he believes, why he believes it, and if we can come to a common understanding about the world.  For one, because finding out what people believe and why is a fascinating thing for me.  Also, because if a Westerner and a devout Muslim can't befriend one another in person, what hope is there for the world?

But then, maybe I'm unusual in this regard.

[angus]

No.  I would love to befriend a devout muslim and find out what he believes, why he believes it, and if we can come to a common understanding about the world.  For one, because finding out what people believe and why is a fascinating thing for me.  Also, because if a Westerner and a devout Muslim can't befriend one another in person, what hope is there for the world?

I share your sentiment.  In fact I have been studying arabic for a couple of years now in order to better understand their cultures.  I practice in the pizza parlors, of course, as most of them around here are owned by either arabic or farsi-speaking people.

[ShapeShifter]

No.  I would love to befriend a devout muslim and find out what he believes, why he believes it, and if we can come to a common understanding about the world.  For one, because finding out what people believe and why is a fascinating thing for me.  Also, because if a Westerner and a devout Muslim can't befriend one another in person, what hope is there for the world?

I share your sentiment.  In fact I have been studying arabic for a couple of years now in order to better understand their cultures.  I practice in the pizza parlors, of course, as most of them around here are owned by either arabic or farsi-speaking people.

That is very touching. Really.

[Rev. Matthew]

I don't think it is inevitable but some people do seem to prefer to segregate themselves. Maybe people, say a black person, would feel uncomfortable moving to a predominantly white neighborhood, just like a white person might feel like if they moved to a black negibhorhood.

And maybe immigrants do because they are in a very different place then before and just like to be in a place where other people are like them, it probably makes them feel more comfortable and helps them transition from their culture to ours or the one they are moving to.

[opebo]

Not inevitable.  In some Latin American countries most people are a mix or blend.  I was looking on the CIA Worldfactbook at the Dominican Republic (yes I'm considering visiting) and it said it was 16% white, 15% black, and 69% mixed.  And they're awfully good looking..

[ShapeShifter]

Not inevitable.  In some Latin American countries most people are a mix or blend.  I was looking on the CIA Worldfactbook at the Dominican Republic (yes I'm considering visiting) and it said it was 16% white, 15% black, and 69% mixed.  And they're awfully good looking..

O my god!!!



You are planning to visit my family's homeland. Hope if you do go, you enjoy the stay.

I am ALSO planning to go there for 1 month and a half in July.

I sure love it there because it is very lay back, unlike NYC.

We surely are VERY diverse people.

[Chiahead]

I think eventually, things will just drift together.  We do have many cultural differences from others that make us ethnic peope, but the world gets smaller and smaller each day via technology.  

A day will come will cultural barriers may just blend together and it will be hard to tell apart.  America is a collection of all cultures and Americans participate in all aspects of different cultures...food, music, dress, etc.  Some catches on, some doesnt', but the more we connect cultures together, the more they will evolve together.  

It will take along time, but when the world is united, cultural barriers may start to fall.

[dazzleman]

I think eventually, things will just drift together.  We do have many cultural differences from others that make us ethnic peope, but the world gets smaller and smaller each day via technology.  

A day will come will cultural barriers may just blend together and it will be hard to tell apart.  America is a collection of all cultures and Americans participate in all aspects of different cultures...food, music, dress, etc.  Some catches on, some doesnt', but the more we connect cultures together, the more they will evolve together.  

It will take along time, but when the world is united, cultural barriers may start to fall.

I agree in general.

There are so many different types of separation among people - religion, race, ethnicity, gender, income level, intelligence, personality, etc.

It is human nature to want to associate with people of similar values and interests.  It is how we define these values and interests that determines the lines along which we separate ourselves, and who we associate with.

People may show curiosity about other cultures, but in the end, most people want their day-to-day associations to be with people they deem to be reasonably similar.

That is why a racially-based approach to ending segregation of that type will never work.  It enshrines race as the primary difference among people, and thereby reinforces racial separation, while at the same time demanding that people deny the basic human preference to associate with similar people.  If you remove race from the equation, people may discover that they have more similarities than differences, and race will not become the primary separator.

The way to achieve racial integration is to narrow the divide in values and attitudes among the races.  This will allow a more organic type of integration to take place, as it has among other ethnic groups that formerly existed in separation, and now live side-by-side.  But under the current policies of making race THE issue, we are doing just the opposite, and deepening racial separation.

School integration to achieve this is a 1960s idea that failed, and is as dead as a doornail.  There is no way to bring about effective integration in schools when white people fled the cities as a result of the last school integration attempt.  Forced integration actually deepened racial separation and provided no corresponding benefit.  In any city that had forced integration, whites fled and the schools became worse than ever, and all the while, anti-black sentiment flared dangerously.

Integration generally does not take place across class lines, or in the lowest classes.  It takes place among educated people of similar class position.  That was the tragic error of forced integration in the 1960s and 1970s.  It attempted to mix poor blacks mostly with poor whites, and the result was explosive.  Meanwhile, middle and upper class whites declined to participate, and moved outside the range of integration.  And yet, of the few integrated school districts that I know, it generally involves large numbers of middle class rather than poor blacks, with middle class whites.  This is a formula that can work.  Poor blacks cannot really be integrated with anybody until they are first elevated socially and economically.  Even middle class blacks are starting to seek separation from poor blacks.

[opebo]

I live among people who are 'racially' and culturally quite different from me, and yet I find them, on average, more compatible than the average American.

[Gabu]

Interesting question.  I would say that, in a way, the answer is yes: people naturally wish to avoid those whom they dislike and cluster around those whom they like.  If you add in the simple fact that humans tend to like what is familiar and to dislike what is not, then it makes sense that people will often wish to cluster around those who look the same way that they do, because it's generally more familiar.  It's the same reason why people who grow up in poor neighborhoods often feel more at home in poor neighborhoods, or why people who grow up in a rural, sparsely populated community feel intimidated when in a large city.

I would not, however, say that this is inevitable.  It is certainly problematic for the purposes of full inclusion that this is the case, because it is essentially a self-propogating thing: people cluster around those who look the same, which makes these people familiar, which makes them cluster together, and so on.  The only thing that could break this is if children happen to grow up with people who look different; in this way, a child could become familiar at a young age with the many different ways people look, and as such, would feel more at home around people who don't look the same.  If such a situation became more widespread, then - and likely only then - true inclusion of people of all races and ethnicities could become possible.

[Emsworth]

I think that segregation is likely, but not inevitable. People tend to be biased against various groups, and often refuse to associate with them. This bigotry could be based on religion, race, social class, or several other factors.

In a free society (i.e., a society that recognizes individual freedom), the likelihood of segregation arising will tend to be lower. For most people, a desire for money outweighs bigotry. Segregation-based policies cost businesses money; most business owners would prefer to have greater profits, than to exhibit bias toward some of their customers. Thus, the possibility of institutionalized segregation is reduced in a free market. Normally, segregation becomes firmly entrenched due to the policies of bigoted governments.

[opebo]

In a free society (i.e., a society that recognizes individual freedom), the likelihood of segregation arising will tend to be lower. For most people, a desire for money outweighs bigotry. Segregation-based policies cost businesses money;

No they don't.  The dominant group has far more money than the oppressed minorities.  One's profits are enhanced by catering to their prejudices and banning the minority - who by definition are less numerous and due to power relationships less well heeled.

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Of course they would!  They would prefer all sorts of things, involving a less demanding and more foolish customer.  But, alas for them, they must deal with what the customer wants, or lose him to their competitor.  So a lunch counter that serves blacks will lose all its white customers (the bulk of its business) to the one round the corner that continues to ban them.  The customer is always right, isn't he, Emsworth?

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While most business persons are racists, you are right to note that the reason they exhibit bias towards their customers is not their personal hatreds so much as their desire for profit.

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No.

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This is certainly true - in fact it is through the excersize of State power on behalf of whites that they became the business owners in the first place, Emsworth.

[J. J.]

There are oceans, mountains, desserts, rivers etc.  between land masses that were there for a reason. When the tower of bable fell God broke people up into tribes and races to humble us. Science backs this up with a look into into genetic history and tracing. Different races are meant to be seperated and in competition- look at the different types of birds in nature for example.

They get out my country, foreigner! 

[Redefeatbush04]

There are oceans, mountains, desserts, rivers etc.  between land masses that were there for a reason. When the tower of bable fell God broke people up into tribes and races to humble us. Science backs this up with a look into into genetic history and tracing. Different races are meant to be seperated and in competition- look at the different types of birds in nature for example.

You are wrong.....the Flying Spaghetti Monster made different language to amuse himself. Science can't back it up because the Flying Spaghetti Monster changes the evidence as soon as people observe it because he, too, finds this amusing.

[Virginian87]

Natural segregation does not seem to be decreasing.  Most neighborhoods around my house are about 95% white, and there are strong Korean, Vietnamese, and black enclaves.  If integration is imminent, it will take at least a couple of more decades to happen.

[Dave from Michigan]

Metro Detroit is quite segregated, my town is very white.  Detroit is 83% Black, and Livonia (2 cities over) is 96% white (it was the whites city in the U.S. with a population over 100,000) a few years back.  Racial issues also affect politics here (see Detroit mayor race).  There are only a few majority black suburbs (Southfield).  most cities are either almost white or black.

[Dr. Cynic]

I disagree. It may happen on an unconcious level, but the governments should not be able to discriminate based on race.

[tarheel-leftist85]

Charlotte seems to be integrated quite well (excepting Southeast corner).  In the cul-de-sac where my first house was, 3 out of the 7 houses were occupied by black families.