How parties die
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
June 06, 2024, 01:15:02 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion
  Presidential Election Trends (Moderator: 100% pro-life no matter what)
  How parties die
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3
Author Topic: How parties die  (Read 18373 times)
Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon
htmldon
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,983
United States


Political Matrix
E: 1.03, S: -2.26

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: December 25, 2003, 10:18:13 PM »
« edited: December 25, 2003, 10:19:19 PM by htmldon »

Interesting article from Bret Stephens, Jerusalem Post: "How parties die"
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1072326002291

EYES ABROAD: HOW PARTIES DIE
By Bret Stephens

How do great political parties die? By a great party, I am not referring to specimens such as the Liberal Democrats in Britain or the Free Democrats in Germany – parties that have never captured national leadership positions except as minority coalition partners – much less one-man-shows such as Ross Perot's Reform Party or Ralph Nader's Greens. I mean parties like the Whigs in 18th century Britain and 19th century America, or the Progressive Conservatives in 20th century Canada.

All of them decisively shaped their respective political landscape for decades. Then they vanished.

Today, at least three great political parties are in a bad way. One is Israel's Labor Party, the other Britain's Conservative Party, the third America's Democratic Party. This isn't to say that any of them won't exist in five or ten or even twenty years' time, although in the case of the Labor Party that's not such a sure thing. It is to say that they will either have to change radically, as Britain's Labour Party did under Tony Blair's leadership, effectively becoming a new party, or circumstances will change radically – and in their favor. Right now, neither possibility seems likely.

CONSIDER EACH party in its turn. In 1992, national elections were held in Israel, Britain and the US. In Israel, Labor took 44 seats in the Knesset.

Today they hold 19. In Britain, the Conservatives under John Major won 329 seats in Parliament.

Today they hold 163. In the US, the Democrats held 259 seats in the House of Representatives, to the Republicans 176, and 56 seats in the Senate, to the Republicans 44. Today, Republicans have 229 seats in the House to the Democrats 205, and 51 in the Senate to the Democrats 48.

Up to a point, one might say these are just the ups-and-downs that all great political parties go through. In 1999 it was the Likud that held 19 Knesset seats, not Labor. In 1997, the Conservatives were just coming off of 18 years in government and voters were plainly tired of them. In 2000, Al Gore won a majority of the popular vote.

But none of this explains the long-term trends. In 1996, Labor fell to 34 seats, then dropped to 26 seats in 1999, despite an impressive personal victory that year for Ehud Barak in the prime ministerial contest. In the 1997 British general election, the Tories dropped to 165 seats, which is where they more or less remain despite three changes in party leadership.

In the US, Republican congressional majorities have held for five consecutive elections. And as Fred Barnes of the Weekly Standard observes, the trend is even more telling at the state level. In 1992, Democrats held 30 governorships; Republicans held 18. By 2002, the figures had flipped: 27 to 23. In state legislatures, Republicans have also gone from holding a minority to a majority of seats. Redistricting – the process of redrawing constituencies to reflect population changes – will only further add to Republican gains.

There's more. First, none of these parties is succeeding in attracting younger voters. The average age of the Conservative Party's 250,000 registered members is over 60, according to a recent report in the New York Times. The Labor Party depends increasingly on its aging loyalists – younger voters who incline Leftward are at least as likely to vote for the dovish Meretz or the bourgeois Shinui. As for the Democrats, Al Gore could do no better than to split the nine million 18-24 year old voters evenly with Bush. For a party that has traditionally relied on this demographic (Clinton won it by 19 percentage points in 1996), this is an ominous result.

Second, the parties have exhausted their leadership bench. The successive failures of Binyamin Ben-Eliezer and Amram Mitzna as Labor Party leaders testifies to this weakness. The same goes for new Tory leader Michael Howard, a one-time has been who's been pushed to the fore mainly because he seems so clever next to his callow and weak predecessors. As for former Vermont governor Howard Dean, his frontrunner status speaks volumes about what the Democratic Party has become.

Connected to this is the heavy legacy of successful past leaders. Even now, the Tories cannot get out from under Margaret Thatcher's shadow – next to her, every Tory leader seems depressingly small. The Democrats remain in the thrall of Bill Clinton, whose personal popularity did nothing to stop his party's slide. And Shimon Peres still runs the Labor Party, testifying equally to his strength and his colleagues' weaknesses.

Third, the parties are beset by deep ideological rifts. For Labor, the question is whether the party is "Likud B or Meretz C," as former Defense Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer put it a year ago.

The Tories spent a decade tearing themselves apart over the peripheral question of Britain's status in Europe. The Democrats are divided between Clinton-style pragmatists and McGovern-style radicals. The trouble for them is that the first seem unlikely to win the nomination, and the second have no chance of winning the election.

These are the immediate problems. The deeper one is that Labor, the Tories, and the Democrats have been overtaken by history. Like an unwise investor, Labor put all its political capital into Oslo – that is, into trusting Yasser Arafat – and cannot recover from its failure or his treachery.

The Conservatives under Thatcher were all about dismantling the nanny state. Ironically, once that state was dismantled – and New Labour forswore any interest in bringing it back – they had nothing to offer voters. The Democrats, as American commentator Lawrence Kaplan writes, are stuck in a September 10 mindset. They have not yet come to terms with the September 12 reality.

There are historical precedents here. In Britain, the Whigs were the party that wanted to curb royal influence in politics, reform the system of parliamentary representation, and repeal the protectionist Corn Laws. All that accomplished (in the case of the Corn Laws, by the opposition Tories), the Whigs became a party without a cause.

In America, by contrast, the Whigs were a party of economic nationalism; they advocated high tariffs, infrastructure investment and a national bank. In Henry Clay, Daniel Webster (and in a young Abraham Lincoln), they had their share of outstanding statesmen. But they held no firm views on slavery, except to devise compromises over it. And as slavery became the central issue of American politics, the Whigs faded into irrelevance.

Although the analogies are inexact, the story of Britain's Whigs and of today's Tories are one and the same: Mission accomplished. Inasmuch as the Thatcher legacy lives on, it does so in the person of Tony Blair, not Michael Howard. Ironically, the same can be said of Israel's Labor Party. Having struggled so long to convince Israel of the need to withdraw from the territories, it must wait impatiently for Ariel Sharon to carry out his announced plans to do so.

As for the Democrats, it is still too soon to tell whether war on terrorism, like slavery, will so comprehensively define the times that any party on the wrong side of it will meet permanent irrelevance. Yet even if it doesn't, Democratic decline predates September 11, and the problems that beset the party then will continue to operate.

ALL THIS could change. A landslide victory by Bush over Dean will surely cause the Democrats to pick their candidates more soberly next time. Indeed, Hillary Clinton is already anticipating that outcome by espousing hawkish views on terrorism.

In Israel, a successful disengagement with the Palestinians will change the subject politically, put Oslo firmly in the past, and focus voter attention on issues where the Likud is weak. It's only with the Tories that one has a hard time seeing a way out, except if Old-New rifts in the Labour Party cause it to self-destruct.

Then again, things may not change. Republicans may once again assume the national political supremacy they enjoyed from Lincoln's election in 1860 until Herbert Hoover's defeat in 1932. Likud may become what Labor was in the early years of the state.

And New Labour, if it can maintain discipline, may yet dominate 21st century British politics the way the Tories dominated the 20th century. De facto one-party rule, even in robust democracies, is hardly unknown in modern times: Just look at the Gaullists in France, or the Christian Democrats in postwar Germany.

As a partisan Republican, and as a supporter of Likud, there's a side of me that can't help but want this. It's a temptation to resist. Parties are sharpened by opposition and in opposition. Political debate deteriorates when one side needn't pay heed to the views of the other. Political elites ossify when personal advancement depends mainly on party favors. One-sided control of government tends to breed radicalism on the opposition benches.

Politics is about substance. But politics is process. It is not only the laws that are enacted, but the to-and-fro that precedes their enactment. For that to work well, there's nothing better than robust government and healthy opposition. As in love and marriage, you can't have one without the other.

bret@jpost.com


Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,924
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2003, 05:24:43 AM »

I don't think that the Democratic Party is in danger of dying out(it's far too strong at state level for that to happen) and I think that Stephens is letting his personal views cloud his judgement over this(translation: it's wishfull thinking), but the Tories are literally dying on their feet and Aavoda are not really any more socialist than Likud these days(remember: in Israel left and right is all about stance on the peace process. This means that Am Ekhad(socialists) are often described as centrists)
Logged
Gustaf
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,785


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2003, 05:37:02 AM »

I don't think that the Democratic Party is in danger of dying out(it's far too strong at state level for that to happen) and I think that Stephens is letting his personal views cloud his judgement over this(translation: it's wishfull thinking), but the Tories are literally dying on their feet

Hm, two can play the game of wishful thinking? I don't think it is true to talk of parties dying. Politics change and parties are redefined. The whigs just got outdated. The tories of the eighteenth century are also outdated, they just retained the name. How someone can support Likud defies my imagination, btw. Policies are the way they are and in the long run the parties balance out on either end of the political spectre.  
Logged
CHRISTOPHER MICHAE
Guest
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2003, 12:59:15 PM »

How was Clinton a Pragmatist? He was very optimistic that his first Budgets would improve everything, and they did. The largest economic recovery in U.S. History, surpluses beyond what the eye could see. Yes, there was a downturn in the final months of his Presidency, but he didn't have to use up any surpluses to try and give us another upsurge. I didn't agree with President Clinton totally, especially on Welfare Reform and Kosovo, but all said and done, he will go down in History as one of the greatest Presidents we've ever had.
Logged
jravnsbo
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,888


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2003, 10:34:49 AM »

Clinton was far from great.  Character issues aside.

He was impeached and so one of only 2 in that category.  

He did have a good economy but handed over one that was limping to put it kindly.

He never submitted a balanced budget, that was done by John Kasich (r-OH) that wrote the balanced budget, even though Clinton took credit for it.

Then even though we were attacked at the WTC in 93, our embasseys and teh USS Cole among others he shot a few missles and that was it to fight terrorism.  Terrorism dind't start when Bush took ove rin Jan 2001.  The terrorists were getting bolder and bolder with each attack b/c they were getting away with it without many repurcusions(sp).  The Sudan was willing to hand over Bin Laden int he 90s and Clinton didn't think he should get involved, yeah that was good.

Far from great though.


How was Clinton a Pragmatist? He was very optimistic that his first Budgets would improve everything, and they did. The largest economic recovery in U.S. History, surpluses beyond what the eye could see. Yes, there was a downturn in the final months of his Presidency, but he didn't have to use up any surpluses to try and give us another upsurge. I didn't agree with President Clinton totally, especially on Welfare Reform and Kosovo, but all said and done, he will go down in History as one of the greatest Presidents we've ever had.
Logged
jravnsbo
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,888


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2003, 10:40:19 AM »

The democrat party will not die.  It survived leaving the union int he civil war and a generation of GOP Presidents it will survive now.  

They have been dealt some major blows though with the lose of both the Presidency and especially Congress now.  (Oh yeah thanks Clinton for that one too!)  The GOP after 40 years of being inthe minority inthe House now has had control for 10 years and through 2010 is likely.  Same with the Senate 8.5 or so , but Jeffords switch was not an election or a choice to choose Dem in control, so only a short lived victory.

The GOP also has a majority of the State legislatures and governors and picked up 3 new ones this year.  

The GOP is expanding adding over 3 million members, and that is in just 6 key states.

The GOP is growing int he South and has swung it almost entirey away fromt eh Democrats, after generations of Democrat control.

No the Democrats will not die, but sure looks a lot rosier on GOP side, come on over!
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,924
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2003, 11:22:17 AM »

Of course... keep on smoking that funny stuff...
Logged
jravnsbo
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,888


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2003, 11:25:06 AM »

what?  Since Clinton came to office the GOP has never been stronger, we took over allt he offices I mentioned and are growing.  The Dems are very worried that Dean will take them down further.  The Dems were crushed in 2002, will they be again in 2004?
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,924
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2003, 11:46:01 AM »

"...that's it... keep puffing away..."
Logged
CHRISTOPHER MICHAE
Guest
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2003, 10:06:55 PM »

what?  Since Clinton came to office the GOP has never been stronger, we took over allt he offices I mentioned and are growing.  The Dems are very worried that Dean will take them down further.  The Dems were crushed in 2002, will they be again in 2004?
"PUFF THE MAGIC DRAGON....."
Logged
jravnsbo
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,888


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2003, 01:15:13 AM »

real and CM, what did I say that was untrue?  

Snide comments do not further the debate.
Logged
Gustaf
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,785


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2004, 06:46:19 PM »

real and CM, what did I say that was untrue?  

Snide comments do not further the debate.

No they most certainly do not. I think they basically mean that you are exaggerating in thinking that the Democratic party is doing so badly. But I am with you, at least in the short perspective, the Dems are looking bad. It is really highly unlikely in any two-party system for one party to die, and the American parties are not sufficienty ideological or have strong enough principles to die.
Logged
jravnsbo
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,888


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2004, 08:13:08 PM »

Well I started my analysis with the line, "The democrats will not die"

But I do think they are wounded for now.


real and CM, what did I say that was untrue?  

Snide comments do not further the debate.

No they most certainly do not. I think they basically mean that you are exaggerating in thinking that the Democratic party is doing so badly. But I am with you, at least in the short perspective, the Dems are looking bad. It is really highly unlikely in any two-party system for one party to die, and the American parties are not sufficienty ideological or have strong enough principles to die.
Logged
CHRISTOPHER MICHAE
Guest
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2004, 11:33:01 PM »

real and CM, what did I say that was untrue?  

Snide comments do not further the debate.
They don't further the debate, really? I seriously beg to differ. Political one-liners and 30 second quips have won elections. Remember Clinton's slogan, very simple, yet powerful: "It's time for them to go." And Go they did in 92.'
I think you ought to watch 'Crossfire' on CNN, which is loaded with sneer remarks and complete sarcasm. But, the audience at George Washington University sure enjoys it, and the main points for each side still come across quite well.
Logged
jravnsbo
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,888


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2004, 11:35:15 PM »

cross fire is ok, but moved time slots and down to a half an hour, so must have lost some popularity and there is only so much Carville I can take and Tucker Carlson is a weak GOP commentator.


real and CM, what did I say that was untrue?  

Snide comments do not further the debate.
They don't further the debate, really? I seriously beg to differ. Political one-liners and 30 second quips have won elections. Remember Clinton's slogan, very simple, yet powerful: "It's time for them to go." And Go they did in 92.'
I think you ought to watch 'Crossfire' on CNN, which is loaded with sneer remarks and complete sarcasm. But, the audience at George Washington University sure enjoys it, and the main points for each side still come across quite well.
Logged
jravnsbo
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,888


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2004, 04:06:01 PM »

deep thoughts by Mr-President? Smiley


Logged
Gustaf
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,785


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2004, 04:58:51 PM »

It's pretty deep for him! Smiley

Logged
© tweed
Miamiu1027
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 36,562
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2004, 05:10:21 PM »

Impressive.

How is Tucker weak?
Logged
jravnsbo
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,888


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2004, 06:15:01 PM »

Many many times tucker just roles over and wants to get along with begala and carville, plus I don't think he asks hard questions.  Novak is better by far.

Logged
© tweed
Miamiu1027
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 36,562
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2004, 06:23:52 PM »

Many many times tucker just roles over and wants to get along with begala and carville, plus I don't think he asks hard questions.  Novak is better by far.

Novak talks like he is eating a stale ecookie.
Logged
jravnsbo
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,888


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2004, 07:03:02 PM »

more deep thoughts?

Many many times tucker just roles over and wants to get along with begala and carville, plus I don't think he asks hard questions.  Novak is better by far.

Novak talks like he is eating a stale ecookie.
Logged
dazzleman
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,777
Political Matrix
E: 1.88, S: 1.59

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2004, 08:55:14 AM »
« Edited: January 04, 2004, 08:56:14 AM by dazzleman »

I don't think the Democratic Party will die out, considering that it survived being on the wrong side in the Civil War and the last half of the Cold War (post-Vietnam).

The biggest overall contributor to the problems of the Democratic party at this time is, in my opinion, the race issue, for a number of reasons (not the reasons liberals will think).

First off, I would say that any ethnic group has "arrived" in the US when it is not automatically identified with a certain party.  Immigrant groups tend to identify first with the Democrats, and then as they become assimilated, they split their support among the parties, according to which party reflects their beliefs, and their ethnicity becomes much less important.  This is as it should be.

Blacks have not politically matured to the point of doing this.  Throughout black voting history, they have been overwhelmingly aligned as a block with either one party or the other.  When they aligned with the Republican party, they were not as potent because back then, they were largely prevented from voting, despite their constitutional right to do so, by racist southern terror groups like the KKK, as well as unconstitutional state policies that effectively barred them from the polls.

Many blacks are not very liberal, and in many cases are more conservative than the typical white person.  Yet they continue to vote overwhelmingly for the Democratic Party.  This effectively gives the left-wing of the Democratic Party far more power than they would have if the party truly reflected the overall beliefs of its members, and pushes more moderate voters away from the party.

Because more moderate voters are being pushed away from the party, the Democratic Party is now dependent on receiving 90+% of the black vote in presidential elections in order to win.  This creates opportunities for unscrupulous black politicians like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson to blackmail the Democrats, and leaves them between a rock and a hard place.  Either you adopt the policies I want, which will doom you in the general election, or I'll encourage blacks to stay home on election day, and you'll lose.

I believe that race has cost the Democrats three successive mayoral elections in one of the country's most heavily Democratic cities -- New York.  In the most recent case, black voters deserted the Democratic nominee because he had campaigned against a minority candidate in the Democratic primary.  The Democrats have been hoist on their own petard in this case; they have stoked racial resentments in New York for so long that now the act of campaigning against a candidate who is a minority is by definition defined as racist, and a reason for black voters to stay home from the polls.

Howard Dean made a true statement (one of his few) when he stated, in response to a question about why he has had trouble attracting enthusiastic black support, that while his campaign is largely a grass roots campaign, black support is gained from the top down.  Very true, and very tragic, because unscrupulous black "leaders" do effectively control the black vote.  Blacks who wish to break free of this intellectual stultification are vilified, and the situation has distorted the whole political alignment.

The Republicans don't have a situation comparable in degree to the racial situation.  The Republicans have made a calculation that they are better off without the black vote at this point in time.  I think this is a rational calculation, but also tragic in a way.  Republicans would have to take huge risks with their own base to appeal to the black vote, and as long as it is a top-down situation, with the attendant intellectual stultification and lack of independent thought that now exists, there is little prospect of any real success.

Let me also say that I don't believe that anti-black racism is the main driving force for people to vote Republican.  It is a factor, but the reality is more subtle and complex than that.  The Democrats are to the left of where they should be, because the nearly unanimous black support gives them political cover.  This drives away white support.  Also, the heavy dependence on black voters by the Democrats forces them to shamelessly pander to blacks, which also drives away white support.  This is not necessarily racism, but rational self-interest in many cases.

I am not a fan of ethnic voting, and hope the day will come when our most persistent ethnic voting block -- the black voters -- will vote based on issues rather than racial identification.  This will lead to a partial political realignment, and create a healthier division among the parties.
Logged
Gustaf
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,785


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2004, 09:05:33 AM »

I don't think the Democratic Party will die out, considering that it survived being on the wrong side in the Civil War and the last half of the Cold War (post-Vietnam).

The biggest overall contributor to the problems of the Democratic party at this time is, in my opinion, the race issue, for a number of reasons (not the reasons liberals will think).

First off, I would say that any ethnic group has "arrived" in the US when it is not automatically identified with a certain party.  Immigrant groups tend to identify first with the Democrats, and then as they become assimilated, they split their support among the parties, according to which party reflects their beliefs, and their ethnicity becomes much less important.  This is as it should be.

Blacks have not politically matured to the point of doing this.  Throughout black voting history, they have been overwhelmingly aligned as a block with either one party or the other.  When they aligned with the Republican party, they were not as potent because back then, they were largely prevented from voting, despite their constitutional right to do so, by racist southern terror groups like the KKK, as well as unconstitutional state policies that effectively barred them from the polls.

Many blacks are not very liberal, and in many cases are more conservative than the typical white person.  Yet they continue to vote overwhelmingly for the Democratic Party.  This effectively gives the left-wing of the Democratic Party far more power than they would have if the party truly reflected the overall beliefs of its members, and pushes more moderate voters away from the party.

Because more moderate voters are being pushed away from the party, the Democratic Party is now dependent on receiving 90+% of the black vote in presidential elections in order to win.  This creates opportunities for unscrupulous black politicians like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson to blackmail the Democrats, and leaves them between a rock and a hard place.  Either you adopt the policies I want, which will doom you in the general election, or I'll encourage blacks to stay home on election day, and you'll lose.

I believe that race has cost the Democrats three successive mayoral elections in one of the country's most heavily Democratic cities -- New York.  In the most recent case, black voters deserted the Democratic nominee because he had campaigned against a minority candidate in the Democratic primary.  The Democrats have been hoist on their own petard in this case; they have stoked racial resentments in New York for so long that now the act of campaigning against a candidate who is a minority is by definition defined as racist, and a reason for black voters to stay home from the polls.

Howard Dean made a true statement (one of his few) when he stated, in response to a question about why he has had trouble attracting enthusiastic black support, that while his campaign is largely a grass roots campaign, black support is gained from the top down.  Very true, and very tragic, because unscrupulous black "leaders" do effectively control the black vote.  Blacks who wish to break free of this intellectual stultification are vilified, and the situation has distorted the whole political alignment.

The Republicans don't have a situation comparable in degree to the racial situation.  The Republicans have made a calculation that they are better off without the black vote at this point in time.  I think this is a rational calculation, but also tragic in a way.  Republicans would have to take huge risks with their own base to appeal to the black vote, and as long as it is a top-down situation, with the attendant intellectual stultification and lack of independent thought that now exists, there is little prospect of any real success.

Let me also say that I don't believe that anti-black racism is the main driving force for people to vote Republican.  It is a factor, but the reality is more subtle and complex than that.  The Democrats are to the left of where they should be, because the nearly unanimous black support gives them political cover.  This drives away white support.  Also, the heavy dependence on black voters by the Democrats forces them to shamelessly pander to blacks, which also drives away white support.  This is not necessarily racism, but rational self-interest in many cases.

I am not a fan of ethnic voting, and hope the day will come when our most persistent ethnic voting block -- the black voters -- will vote based on issues rather than racial identification.  This will lead to a partial political realignment, and create a healthier division among the parties.

Well said!
Logged
English
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,187


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2004, 09:06:27 AM »

The Tory party will not die either. Eventually it will move back to the centre and will start winning again. Probably in the election of 2009/2010 but not before then. Howard has too much baggage. It will take someone like Letwin or Johnson to stand a chance.
Logged
M
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,491


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2004, 10:56:16 AM »

Avoda I think is doomed. Two new lefty parties- Shinui, which is hawkish and capitalist but liberal on social issues, and Yossi Beilin's new party Yiud, which has absorbed Meretz and is radically lefty, are stealing it's vote from both sides. If a general election were held today, Labour would not be the largest party- it would be interesting to see who would be, though. The only people who are still loyal to Labour are elderly rich Ashkenazic socialist peaceniks. I mean, get real!
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.073 seconds with 11 queries.