Italy and France: 1940

[JSojourner]

I recall that during the Nazi invasion of France in 1940, Mussolini ordered his troops to attack France also.  All the atlases and maps I own show nothing in the way of actual troop movement.  Did the French military effectively stop the Italians?  Was there much in the way of ground, air or naval combat?

As many of you know, I am (for inexplicable reasons) quite fascinated by the role(s) played by lesser belligerents in the Second World War.  I was just hoping that some of you had better sources or information...

[Hash]

Italy invaded in late June (they wasted a month preparing, the Italians being unready), when the collabos had already taken over France. France had no real army, a joke navy and air force. The Italian's only objective was probably to capture territories which had been "Italian" before Napoléon III (Savoie, Comté de Nice).

The Italians attacked in the Alps and along the coast, they were screwed by bad weather and a storm in the Alps and along the coast they only partially occupied the border city of Menton. Wikipedia says that "on the Cote d'Azur the Italian invasion was held up by a French NCO and seven men." There was some French naval action in Liguria, Libya and other Italian coastlines, and the Italian RAF did do some bombing. Most stuff was land-based.

They signed an armistice shortly after the German armistice. The Germans gave Italy an occupation zone including Corse, Menton, parts of Savoie and Alps, and later expanded to Grenoble, Nice, Toulon and so forth. The Italians protected French Jews from persecution and living in Italian zone was probably a lot more fun than in German land.

[JSojourner]

Italy invaded in late June (they wasted a month preparing, the Italians being unready), when the collabos had already taken over France. France had no real army, a joke navy and air force. The Italian's only objective was probably to capture territories which had been "Italian" before Napoléon III (Savoie, Comté de Nice).

The Italians attacked in the Alps and along the coast, they were screwed by bad weather and a storm in the Alps and along the coast they only partially occupied the border city of Menton. Wikipedia says that "on the Cote d'Azur the Italian invasion was held up by a French NCO and seven men." There was some French naval action in Liguria, Libya and other Italian coastlines, and the Italian RAF did do some bombing. Most stuff was land-based.

They signed an armistice shortly after the German armistice. The Germans gave Italy an occupation zone including Corse, Menton, parts of Savoie and Alps, and later expanded to Grenoble, Nice, Toulon and so forth. The Italians protected French Jews from persecution and living in Italian zone was probably a lot more fun than in German land.

Thanks Hashemite.  I really have never understood Italian military missteps, lack of preparedness, etc.  I would think they could have easily secured the whole coast and gobbled up Corsica.  East Africa, Egypt, Greece, etc.  I'd think you'd succeed at least once, by default.

My father knew a fellow who was in the Italian Army.  His take was that very few of them had any stomach for fighting because they hated Mussolini, tolerated the British reasonably well, loved the Americans and felt the Russians were just too far away to feel threatened by.  Dad quoted him as saying, "You a nice man.  I a nice man.  Mister Roosevelt...he a nice man.  Not-a-so-much Mussolini."

Of all the people who speak broken English, Italians easily make it sound the sweetest.  I digress...

[Hash]

Thanks Hashemite.  I really have never understood Italian military missteps, lack of preparedness, etc.  I would think they could have easily secured the whole coast and gobbled up Corsica.  East Africa, Egypt, Greece, etc.  I'd think you'd succeed at least once, by default.

My father knew a fellow who was in the Italian Army.  His take was that very few of them had any stomach for fighting because they hated Mussolini, tolerated the British reasonably well, loved the Americans and felt the Russians were just too far away to feel threatened by.  Dad quoted him as saying, "You a nice man.  I a nice man.  Mister Roosevelt...he a nice man.  Not-a-so-much Mussolini.

I suppose a synchronized Italo-German invasion of France at the same time might have worked. The Italian invasion in the south would have taken the sh**t-poor French army by surprise, though the Maginot Line (Alpine Line) did in fact extend down the Menton might have stopped the Italians since the Italian army was nowhere as perfected as the German army.

A full-blown land-air-sea invasion of Corsica might have gobbled it up, but Italian occupation (or German, for that matter) would have been very weak. There's the whole maquis, you know.

But then, the Italian army...

Of all the people who speak broken English, Italians easily make it sound the sweetest.  I digress...

Obviously. Italian is a sweet language in itself.

[big bad fab]

If you read French, one small book is very smart and clear on every "small" country occupied by or allied with Hitler's Germany:

http://www.amazon.fr/Nouvel-ordre-europ%C3%A9en-nazi-1938-1945/dp/2870273584/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245879816&sr=8-3

http://www.amazon.com/Nouvel-Ordre-europeen-nazi-collaboration/dp/2870273584/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245879915&sr=1-1

As for Italy, it occupied little zones in the Alps and Savoie. But after November 42 (when the German army entered also the so-called "free zone" in the South of France) until September 43,
Germany let it occupy a vast zone up to the Rhône, with departements of Savoie, Haute-Savoie, Isère, Drôme, Hautes-Alpes, Basses-Alpes, Alpes-Maritimes, Vaucluse and Var, and small bits of SE of Ain and of East of Bouches-du-Rhône.

But I must say I haven't see 2 identical maps on the subject and I can guarantee you I have many books on France during WW2... Amazing...

After that, in late 43, with Resistance movements blossoming, especially on the "plateau des Glières" (Haute-Savoie) and in Vercors (Isère), I think Italians weren't trusted enough by Germans to eradicate them...

If I remember well, I saw a documentary film on this and Hash is right: in 1940, small French troops in Menton managed to stop Italians for a while...

[JSojourner]

Thank you both!

[dead0man]

How different would the war have been if the Italians fought like the Finns?

[big bad fab]

How different would the war have been if the Italians fought like the Finns?

You can always say that Hitler wouldn't have been diverted from Russia by Italian failures in the Balkans in April 1941.
So, he may have attacked Russia earlier and reached Moscow earlier and taken it before winter.

But the Soviet army would have won anyway: Russia was too vast both to conquer and to keep...

[JSojourner]

How different would the war have been if the Italians fought like the Finns?

The Finns had several things going for them.  Not least being the fact that, in 1939-40, they were defending their home turf.  Then, with Operation Barbarossa, they were reclaiming territory that was rightfully theirs.

The Italians were on a mission of conquest and territorial expansion.  So the average Finnish soldier felt as though he was fighting for hearth and home.  The average Italian soldier could only think he was fighting for less noble reasons.  (Either FOR the Duce or AGAINST British hegemony in the Mediterranean.)  Neither comes close to defending your home.  Of course, there were some dyed in the wool, true-believer Fascists who adored Musso.  But his personality cult wore very thin, and rather quickly.

Equipment-wise, Finnish soldiers were generally better off.  The Finnish rifle was basically a Mauser knockoff without the many problems associated with the Carcano.  And the Finns were equipped with far more sub machine guns.  The Italian submachine gun, the Moschetto, was (if memory serves) not a terrible weapon...but it was not issued in quantities sufficient to make a difference. 

One other difference.  The Italians, from the outset of the war, had to contend with the British Navy.  The Soviet Navy was almost non-existent and, therefore, the Finns need not worry about naval bombardment, aircraft carriers, submarine warfare or back door amphibious landings.

[Хahar 🤔]

An Italian invasion at the same time as the German would have done what all Italian invasions did: create a hassle for Germany to fix.

[Хahar 🤔]

How different would the war have been if the Italians fought like the Finns?

It's the Italian Army. Imagining them fighting as well as the Russians in the Winter War is near to impossible, let alone the Finns.

[JSojourner]

How different would the war have been if the Italians fought like the Finns?

It's the Italian Army. Imagining them fighting as well as the Russians in the Winter War is near to impossible, let alone the Finns.

I don't think that is an indictment of Italian courage or bravery.  I think it is actually more of a statement about Italian integrity.  Of course they were lackluster fighters.  The majority of them, at least by 1940, did not respect their leader.  And they held very little hatred for anyone -- the French, British, Russians, Americans, etc.

[SPQR]

How different would the war have been if the Italians fought like the Finns?

It's the Italian Army. Imagining them fighting as well as the Russians in the Winter War is near to impossible, let alone the Finns.

I don't think that is an indictment of Italian courage or bravery.  I think it is actually more of a statement about Italian integrity.  Of course they were lackluster fighters.  The majority of them, at least by 1940, did not respect their leader.  And they held very little hatred for anyone -- the French, British, Russians, Americans, etc.

I agree.We had sh**t generals in both WW,and in the second we had a fascist regime too...but our soldiers surely cannot be criticized.Not their fault if they were sent to war with sh**t equipment.

[JSojourner]

How different would the war have been if the Italians fought like the Finns?

It's the Italian Army. Imagining them fighting as well as the Russians in the Winter War is near to impossible, let alone the Finns.

I don't think that is an indictment of Italian courage or bravery.  I think it is actually more of a statement about Italian integrity.  Of course they were lackluster fighters.  The majority of them, at least by 1940, did not respect their leader.  And they held very little hatred for anyone -- the French, British, Russians, Americans, etc.

I agree.We had sh**t generals in both WW,and in the second we had a fascist regime too...but our soldiers surely cannot be criticized.Not their fault if they were sent to war with sh**t equipment.

The equipment was mostly terrible, though I think the Moschetto submachine gun was underrated and could have been effective if distributed in larger quantities.  The Carcano carbine and rifle were complete disasters.  Italian armor was ca. 1930.

The Italian Navy and Air Force were both considered formidable. 

I suspect a combination of "no desire to fight for Mussolini" and overwhelming British firepower did them in.  That raid on Taranto was a nasty affair.

In terms of sheer guts and courage, Italians who took up arms against Hitler performed quite admirably when given the chance. 

[Hash]

How different would the war have been if the Italians fought like the Finns?

It's the Italian Army. Imagining them fighting as well as the Russians in the Winter War is near to impossible, let alone the Finns.

I don't think that is an indictment of Italian courage or bravery.  I think it is actually more of a statement about Italian integrity.  Of course they were lackluster fighters.  The majority of them, at least by 1940, did not respect their leader.  And they held very little hatred for anyone -- the French, British, Russians, Americans, etc.

I agree.We had sh**t generals in both WW,and in the second we had a fascist regime too...but our soldiers surely cannot be criticized.Not their fault if they were sent to war with sh**t equipment.

They did, however, have the nicest uniforms in Europe

[big bad fab]

How different would the war have been if the Italians fought like the Finns?

It's the Italian Army. Imagining them fighting as well as the Russians in the Winter War is near to impossible, let alone the Finns.

I don't think that is an indictment of Italian courage or bravery.  I think it is actually more of a statement about Italian integrity.  Of course they were lackluster fighters.  The majority of them, at least by 1940, did not respect their leader.  And they held very little hatred for anyone -- the French, British, Russians, Americans, etc.

I agree.We had sh**t generals in both WW,and in the second we had a fascist regime too...but our soldiers surely cannot be criticized.Not their fault if they were sent to war with sh**t equipment.

They did, however, have the nicest uniforms in Europe

I deeply disagree
Unfortunately, German uniforms (so exhaustive, original and various along one common line) were the best, with British (sophisticated, proud), US (in their simplicity) and Hungarian (so kitsch) ones not far away.