Teachers pissed to learn "zero tolerance" is a two way street

[dead0man]

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"zero tolerance" is always stupid.  The sooner society figures that out the better.

[MK]

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"zero tolerance" is always stupid.  The sooner society figures that out the better.

Well with the recent problems involving teachers acting like the teenage students they teach.     

 I would say Teachers should have to go through FBI like employment process to insure we get only the best teaching our kids.  But that may be a tad too much,however I understand why the knee-jerk " zero tolerance".

[dead0man]

We'd have to pay teachers a lot more if we did something like that and if we paid them more, we wouldn't need to do things like that to ensure quality teachers.

The best thing for teachers would be to make getting a teaching degree substantially more difficult.  Fewer teachers around would increase wages, and in time, bring in better people as teachers.  Right now, teaching is a "fall back" degree for way to many people.  A LOT of teachers started college wanting to be something else (a chemical engineer, a nuclear physicist, whatever) realize they are too stupid for such things and fall back on an easy to get teachers degree.

Damn it, now I've hijacked my own thread.

[anvi]

We'd have to pay teachers a lot more if we did something like that and if we paid them more, we wouldn't need to do things like that to ensure quality teachers.

The best thing for teachers would be to make getting a teaching degree substantially more difficult.  Fewer teachers around would increase wages, and in time, bring in better people as teachers.  Right now, teaching is a "fall back" degree for way to many people.  A LOT of teachers started college wanting to be something else (a chemical engineer, a nuclear physicist, whatever) realize they are too stupid for such things and fall back on an easy to get teachers degree.

Damn it, now I've hijacked my own thread.

What you say here about teachers may be true of some.  But having been a full-time college teacher for almost nine years now, my experience of people in the field tells me that what you say here is a grossly unfair on several counts, even putting aside your labelling of teachers as "stupid."  In many states the teacher certification process is rigorous.  Many are required to undertake professional development training at many stages during their working careers just to keep current on the most innovative teaching methods.  College teachers like myself generally had to go through at least four years of undergraduate school and at least six years of graduate school, while high school teachers have at minimum the four years of undergraduate school and many have in addition a two-year masters.  Jobs that are preceeded by six to ten years of training at the trainee's expense don't have lax standards.  (By the way, I want to add that I believe that grade school and high school teachers deserve to earn respectably more than college professors like me).  Bringing in fewer teachers might increase wages, but the number of students-per-teacher would increase unbearably and deprive students of the individual attention they need from teachers (they already get too little attention under present circumstances).  Most of the teachers that I have worked with and met intended to be teachers and pursued that goal with dedication and committment, it was not a "fall-back" degree for many, as it was not for me.wh

Anyway, regarding the original theme of this discussion, teachers who have been proven to have committed illegal drug posession offenses, particularly those which involve bringing the unauthorized drugs to their places of employment, should absolutely suffer zero-tolerance termination from their jobs.  No doubt about it.   

[opebo]

Actually it is precisely the licensure requirements that interfere with getting good teachers - teaching is most definitely not a 'fall back position', because in order to teach in an american school you have to have planned for it something like a half-decade in advance, due to the requirement of getting an 'education' degree.  If you merely know your subject, perhaps even have a master's degree in it, you still can't teach in an american high school without going back for another couple of years of study in 'education classes'. 

Thus, we miss out on all the otherwise unemployed well educated people who could drop into teaching when it suited them, and are left only with the sort of miserables who would plan to be a teacher. 

[dead0man]

What you say here about teachers may be true of some.  But having been a full-time college teacher for almost nine years now, my experience of people in the field tells me that what you say here is a grossly unfair on several counts, even putting aside your labelling of teachers as "stupid."  In many states the teacher certification process is rigorous.  Many are required to undertake professional development training at many stages during their working careers just to keep current on the most innovative teaching methods.  College teachers like myself generally had to go through at least four years of undergraduate school and at least six years of graduate school, while high school teachers have at minimum the four years of undergraduate school and many have in addition a two-year masters.  Jobs that are preceeded by six to ten years of training at the trainee's expense don't have lax standards.  (By the way, I want to add that I believe that grade school and high school teachers deserve to earn respectably more than college professors like me).  Bringing in fewer teachers might increase wages, but the number of students-per-teacher would increase unbearably and deprive students of the individual attention they need from teachers (they already get too little attention under present circumstances).  Most of the teachers that I have worked with and met intended to be teachers and pursued that goal with dedication and committment, it was not a "fall-back" degree for many, as it was not for me.wh

Anyway, regarding the original theme of this discussion, teachers who have been proven to have committed illegal drug posession offenses, particularly those which involve bringing the unauthorized drugs to their places of employment, should absolutely suffer zero-tolerance termination from their jobs.  No doubt about it.  

Aye.  Most of the teachers I've known personally (my sister for one) went to college to be a teacher.  Most teachers are great people that knowingly sacraficed a better life to "give a little back".  Thank whatever god you believe in that we have people like that.

The student-teacher ratio is a crock though.  Regular kids learning regular things don't need a 15-1 teacher to student ratio.

[dead0man]

Actually it is precisely the licensure requirements that interfere with getting good teachers - teaching is most definitely not a 'fall back position', because in order to teach in an american school you have to have planned for it something like a half-decade in advance, due to the requirement of getting an 'education' degree.  If you merely know your subject, perhaps even have a master's degree in it, you still can't teach in an american high school without going back for another couple of years of study in 'education classes'. 

Thus, we miss out on all the otherwise unemployed well educated people who could drop into teaching when it suited them, and are left only with the sort of miserables who would plan to be a teacher. 

You actually think just any jackass can teach?  I've taught a few classes in my life, (CPR in the Air Force was my big one) and I sucked at it.  I actually wanted to be a high school history teacher for a time, but I'm selfish and wanted to be better compensated so I chose a different life path.

[opebo]

You actually think just any jackass can teach?  I've taught a few classes in my life, (CPR in the Air Force was my big one) and I sucked at it.  I actually wanted to be a high school history teacher for a time, but I'm selfish and wanted to be better compensated so I chose a different life path.

I actually think that any jackass can do anything.  But the point is that the sort of jackass who drops into teaching from a wider or more varied life experience has potential, while the kind who go into teaching through the horrible stultifying official process are gauranteed to be bores.

Though it is true that teaching is one of the hardest jobs out there, and probably THE hardest when compared to the low pay.

[dead0man]

Harder than putting tar on the roofs of office buildings?

[opebo]

Harder than putting tar on the roofs of office buildings?

Far harder.  Physical labour is not at all bad if you are not too old, and in good health, and protected by a union.  If I could make $35/hour tarring roofs I would consider it over the hectic miseries of teaching in an american high school.

[dead0man]

Good luck with that.

[opebo]

Good luck with that.

It was a hypothetical, Deadman.  Obviously any employment is going to be bad without union protections.  In any case it is a near certainty that I will not be tarring roofs or teaching in the US (for many reasons).

[dead0man]

I've only had one union job and it was my first, worst and shortest job, bagging groceries.  Ok, sheetrocking may have been worse than baggin', but it paid (slightly) better.  I haven't not had a job since the first week of Feb 1993.  I just realized that was exactly 16 years ago.  Odd.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Harder than putting tar on the roofs of office buildings?

YOU'RE NOT HELPING HERE

I had to help tar an old school building (oh, the irony) once and it was hot out and I pretty much wanted to off myself.  And I didn't get paid. 

And I had to walk 14 miles uphill both ways with NO WATER.

(okay... except that last part)

But seriously.. getting a teaching degree shouldn't be easy.  I don't think it should be as hard as getting an engineering degree (unless you plan to teach engineering), but we need to screen potential teachers better... and pay them better.  We just need to find a better way of performance pay that doesn't involve standardized tests.

[dead0man]

Totally agree.


(and I've never tarred(?) myself, but I witnessed it.  On the roof of a 5 story office building at Emory University, Atlanta in July.  Two black guys that looked to be at least 65 if not 80 working the mops.  It was hot as hell on that roof anyway, but as you approached them and their large machine'O tar it became nearly unbearable.  You couldn't pay me enough to do that.  Of course I was wearing jeans, boots, a tshirt and a flannel and carrying 2 pieces of sheetrock back and forth across the roof.  This is why I joined the Air Force.)

[© tweed]

why are they searching cars?

[dead0man]

Somebody narked I think. 

<pure speculation>Some goody two shoes saw the art teacher getting high with the chemistry teacher in their cars after lunch.

[opebo]

Totally agree.


(and I've never tarred(?) myself, but I witnessed it.  On the roof of a 5 story office building at Emory University, Atlanta in July.  Two black guys that looked to be at least 65 if not 80 working the mops.  It was hot as hell on that roof anyway, but as you approached them and their large machine'O tar it became nearly unbearable.  You couldn't pay me enough to do that.  Of course I was wearing jeans, boots, a tshirt and a flannel and carrying 2 pieces of sheetrock back and forth across the roof.  This is why I joined the Air Force.)

This could all be fixed by setting up a special highly ventilated air condition tent on the roof, and/or providing workers with air conditioned space suits.  The union should require this.

[Boris]

why are they searching cars?

they never did that at your high school?

[© tweed]

why are they searching cars?

they never did that at your high school?

certainly not to faculty