Racial Identitarianism vs. Gender Identitarianism

[Florian Geyer]

In modern leftist thinking, race is typically regarded as purely biological. If someone like Rachel Dolezal were to say that they were black, the left would reject them. In their eyes, only ethnically African people are black.

However, gender is often regarded by leftists as purely a social construct, and as not influenced by biological sex. And likewise transgender people are accepted and practically worshipped by leftists.

This seems pretty logically inconsistent to me. Why can somebody not change their race, if they can change their gender? Couldn't a white guy completely immersed in black culture be considered black according to leftist definitions? Or does his biological race determine the way he acts?

[Sestak]

In modern leftist thinking, race is typically regarded as purely biological. If someone like Rachel Dolezal were to say that they were black, the left would reject them. In their eyes, only ethnically African people are black.

However, gender is often regarded by leftists as purely a social construct, and as not influenced by biological sex. And likewise transgender people are accepted and practically worshipped by leftists.

This seems pretty logically inconsistent to me. Why can somebody not change their race, if they can change their gender? Couldn't a white guy completely immersed in black culture be considered black according to leftist definitions? Or does his biological race determine the way he acts?

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

because "race" is a completely cultural construct with no biological roots, while "gender" (a opposed to, say, "gender roles") has a biological element to it? There is no scientific justification or even understandable explanation behind "transracialism", whereas it's pretty easy to make hypotheses on what causes transgenderism: all humans, after all have the potential at fertilization to be either male or female, but your ethnicity will simply be whatever your parents contribute.

[Joe Haydn]

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

[PSOL]

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

[Beet]

If anything it should be the opposite. Gender is a lot more biologicallly established than race.

[Sestak]

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Yeah I actually misspoke when I said it was just culture. Some parts of gender/gender roles are associated with mental hardwiring, and this can sometimes diverge from a person’s biological sex.

[Joe Haydn]

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

If anything it should be the opposite. Gender is a lot more biologicallly established than race.

[Sestak]

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

The idea is that ‘biological sex’ refers to the anatomical distinctions. ‘Gender’ to the mental and societal ones.

[Sestak]

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

The idea is that ‘biological sex’ refers to the anatomical distinctions. ‘Gender’ to the mental and societal ones.

And also, why is it “denying one’s anatomy” to accept that their mental state is one not traditionally associated with that anatomy?

[PSOL]

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

All separations of mine and body are mostly inherently due in some way to physical differences and real phenomena changing those variations, and the CT scans prove that. Look at how many mental illnesses like schizophrenia are caused by activity and triggers either in the womb or due to having pre-set bad reactions to drugs.

you believing with your magical faux-gnostic bull poop doesn’t change that, as life is set by what we can observe and what is the most real. The real is with the consistent and emotional reactions by numerous Trans individuals on that they don’t like their bodies and want to match it up with something more agreeable. The treatment for 40+ years is give them hormones and let them identify with what they want, as science and their own personal convictions prove again and again.

Go to the Church of Scientology or Christian Scientists with your reality denialism and try to follow what you preach, you’ll cheat on the side yet still preach, but at least you’ll be outed as a conman.

[Joe Haydn]

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

The idea is that ‘biological sex’ refers to the anatomical distinctions. ‘Gender’ to the mental and societal ones.

I understand that, but again, identifying with the opposite gender just seems to me to be reinforcing rigid gender roles for no good reason.  I don't see why it should matter if your "gendered" characteristics don't match up with your biological sex, unless you believe in outdated and stereotypical gender roles

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

The idea is that ‘biological sex’ refers to the anatomical distinctions. ‘Gender’ to the mental and societal ones.

And also, why is it “denying one’s anatomy” to accept that their mental state is one not traditionally associated with that anatomy?

I was referring to people who get surgery or take hormones. Since gender dysphoria is a mental rather than physical condition, this seems the wrong approach to me.

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

All separations of mine and body are mostly inherently due in some way to physical differences and real phenomena changing those variations, and the CT scans prove that. Look at how many mental illnesses like schizophrenia are caused by activity and triggers either in the womb or due to having pre-set bad reactions to drugs.

you believing with your magical faux-gnostic bull poop doesn’t change that, as life is set by what we can observe and what is the most real. The real is with the consistent and emotional reactions by numerous Trans individuals on that they don’t like their bodies and want to match it up with something more agreeable. The treatment for 40+ years is give them hormones and let them identify with what they want, as science and their own personal convictions prove again and again.

Go to the Church of Scientology or Christian Scientists with your reality denialism and try to follow what you preach, you’ll cheat on the side yet still preach, but at least you’ll be outed as a conman.

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here, especially with the "faux-gnostic" and Christian part (I am definitely non-religious). I was trying to have a civil conversation about an issue that we disagree on and I don't think I was being out of line at all, so I really don't appreciate being insulted. Also, my views on this issue are definitely not settled and I could very likely be convinced otherwise, so know that I'm not being rigid here.

Considering the atmosphere of this forum, I really should've known that presenting a controversial view like this would've resulted in me being shut down. But quite frankly, I'm still a bit shocked at the insults. As a sidenote, I think you're a good poster and I wouldn't want you to dislike me just because we disagree on one issue, so can't we just agree to disagree?

[PSOL]

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

The idea is that ‘biological sex’ refers to the anatomical distinctions. ‘Gender’ to the mental and societal ones.

I understand that, but again, identifying with the opposite gender just seems to me to be reinforcing rigid gender roles for no good reason.  I don't see why it should matter if your "gendered" characteristics don't match up with your biological sex, unless you believe in outdated and stereotypical gender roles

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

The idea is that ‘biological sex’ refers to the anatomical distinctions. ‘Gender’ to the mental and societal ones.

And also, why is it “denying one’s anatomy” to accept that their mental state is one not traditionally associated with that anatomy?

I was referring to people who get surgery or take hormones. Since gender dysphoria is a mental rather than physical condition, this seems the wrong approach to me.

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

All separations of mine and body are mostly inherently due in some way to physical differences and real phenomena changing those variations, and the CT scans prove that. Look at how many mental illnesses like schizophrenia are caused by activity and triggers either in the womb or due to having pre-set bad reactions to drugs.

you believing with your magical faux-gnostic bull poop doesn’t change that, as life is set by what we can observe and what is the most real. The real is with the consistent and emotional reactions by numerous Trans individuals on that they don’t like their bodies and want to match it up with something more agreeable. The treatment for 40+ years is give them hormones and let them identify with what they want, as science and their own personal convictions prove again and again.

Go to the Church of Scientology or Christian Scientists with your reality denialism and try to follow what you preach, you’ll cheat on the side yet still preach, but at least you’ll be outed as a conman.

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here, especially with the "faux-gnostic" and Christian part (I am definitely non-religious). I was trying to have a civil conversation about an issue that we disagree on and I don't think I was being out of line at all, so I really don't appreciate being insulted. Also, my views on this issue are definitely not settled and I could very likely be convinced otherwise, so know that I'm not being rigid here.

Considering the atmosphere of this forum, I really should've known that presenting a controversial view like this would've resulted in me being shut down. But quite frankly, I'm still a bit shocked at the insults. As a sidenote, I think you're a good poster and I wouldn't want you to dislike me just because we disagree on one issue, so can't we just agree to disagree?

Sorry, I can’t remain as civil as I like with the trigger “scientistic”. Your right that I totally stepped out of line there insulting you. To get you up to speed, the religious groups I mentioned reject the “real world”, including evidence to the contrary because they believe in a higher metaphysical reality. Unlike more mainstream groups, and the CS and Scientologists even take actions to be closer to that world in life.

What I was trying to say was this. Before scientists got these recent brain scans, of which were tested to be truthful and showing of that there is a biological component to being transgendered, those who suffered from gender dysphoria have been saying this forever. They, of which includes some close friends of mine, have told me of their struggle with gender dysphoria and how they’ve tried every step in the book not to be. Being a woman is hard enough as it is in this world, from the words of my other close friends, so the thinking here is why would anyone go through with transitioning? Why would they lie about any of this stuff? Why would this lie be told for millennia?

I’m not good with taking when people just disregard people’s realities as unreal and just “in the mind” as something that could go on its own. I have had my reality denied before when I was reporting my grades with my parents, and why that may seem small, it isn’t when they base treatment of you on that factor. I can feel their struggle in a sort of understanding from my own past, and I lash out for them as I would myself in those spots.

I’m keeping my old post up out of principle and shame for myself, really was poor wording. I’m not good at being chill or developing much against those who don’t do outright attacks. It isn’t helpful if your being attacked, that makes my side look bad and for the truth to be obscured. I ask for you to accept my apology for just poor behavior exhibited with my last post.

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There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

Well, it's clearly not a delusion, is it? A delusion would be the man who thinks he is Napoleon or the anorexic who believes she is obese. Delusional individuals are out of touch with reality, and overlook any physical evidence that contradicts their delusions. A person with gender dysphoria, by contrast, has no delusions: they are painfully aware of their physical reality, and it causes serious distress. From then on, you have two real choices: the solution you advocate, one which does not work and has largely been discarded, and the solution which does work in reducing suicides etc (and I swear, if someone posts that Dhejne paper that people like Shapiro always cite, please do a favour and actually, um, read it?).

More to the point, I think your citing of "gender stereotypes" just proves you don't get it. It's the old dumb argument: "can't you just be a effeminate male/butch female!". If anything the opposite is true: gendered stereotypes are a tool to hurt Transpeople by forcing them into performative gendered displays in order to even access treatment in the first place (e.g. how GI clinics used to deny coverage point blanc to a trabswoman who wears trousers). Gender roles exist in a seperate universe to gender identity: plenty of trans men still enjoy "effeminate activities" and plenty of trans women eschew make up or whatever.