Al Gore's proposal to replace the SS tax with a CO2 tax?

[David S]

In his testimony before congress on Global Warming, one of Al Gore's proposals was to replace the payroll tax (i.e. SS tax) with a CO2 tax. What is your opinion of that?

Economist Bjorn Lomborg estimated that it would require a tax of $140 per ton of CO2 to replace the revenue from the SS tax. According to him that would amount to about $1.25 per gallon tax on gasoline.

By my estimates it would add about 14 cents per KWH to the cost of electricity generated by coal. I based that on a figure of 2.117 lbs of CO2 per KWH  for coal burning plants per this site. http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/page/co2_report/co2report.html If I'm wrong about that please tell me. Currently electricity costs about $10 per KWH.

On the positive side it would mean you would no longer pay Social Security tax.

So what do you think?

[Reignman]

I guess if the overall tax burden stays the same, then it's an alright idea. The problem is that people who have to drive a lot to get around would be paying more if the tax including gasoline.

[Gabu]

I guess if the overall tax burden stays the same, then it's an alright idea. The problem is that people who have to drive a lot to get around would be paying more if the tax including gasoline.

Well, that's kind of the point.  It would encourage people to get more fuel-efficient cars, to walk/bike places, or to use mass transit.

[Reignman]

I guess if the overall tax burden stays the same, then it's an alright idea. The problem is that people who have to drive a lot to get around would be paying more if the tax including gasoline.

Well, that's kind of the point.  It would encourage people to get more fuel-efficient cars, to walk/bike places, or to use mass transit.

Yeah, but if you live in rural America...

[Gabu]

I guess if the overall tax burden stays the same, then it's an alright idea. The problem is that people who have to drive a lot to get around would be paying more if the tax including gasoline.

Well, that's kind of the point.  It would encourage people to get more fuel-efficient cars, to walk/bike places, or to use mass transit.

Yeah, but if you live in rural America...

Well, they can get back to using horse-drawn carriages like the old days.

[David S]

I have to correct something here. I misquoted Gore on his congressional testimony. Before congress he said the SS tax should be reduced not eliminated. And he also said help should be provided to the poor who might be hurt by it.

It was in a speech at New York University School of Law on
September 18, 2006 that he said eliminate the SS tax.

http://www.nyu.edu/community/gore.html
"For the last fourteen years, I have advocated the elimination of all payroll taxes - including those for social security and unemployment compensation - and the replacement of that revenue in the form of pollution taxes - principally on CO2. The overall level of taxation would remain exactly the same. It would be, in other words, a revenue neutral tax swap. But, instead of discouraging businesses from hiring more employees, it would discourage business from producing more pollution."

My appologies for the error.

[MaC]

If Gore had called for getting rid of social security and other governmental safety nets in order to implement environmental taxes, I might like the idea.

[Dr. Cynic]

Well, the burden would essentially be the same... I don't like payroll taxes because I would at least like my paycheck that I work very hard for... The only taxes I really mind are that and the Head Tax... The head tax isn't a burden or anything... It just pisses me off. I'd be willing to pay a CO2 tax in place of my payroll tax.

[David S]

Actually the idea of replacing an existing tax with a CO2 tax has some appeal to me. Although I might suggest that the CO2 tax replace the income tax instead of the payroll tax. This would be kind of a compromise deal. The global warming crowd gets a CO2 tax which would create  huge incentive to reduce CO2 emissions. And eliminating the income tax would make a lot of people happy. Nobody likes doing income taxes. ( Now that I've said that I'm sure some of the forum contrarians will say how much they like doing income taxes    ) But really most people don't like them.

The one issue which I suspect the VP might have overlooked is that if the tax is successful in reducing CO2 emissions then the government will see a reduction in revenue. I don't think the VP intended that although Libertarians would celebrate such an outcome.

[Dr. Cynic]

Nobody likes doing income taxes. ( Now that I've said that I'm sure some of the forum contrarians will say how much they like doing income taxes    ) But really most people don't like them.

I don't like them either... Nobody really does, but I recognize the need for them... I just go and get a CPA to do them or I ask my brother... He's training to be an accountant.

[David S]

Nobody likes doing income taxes. ( Now that I've said that I'm sure some of the forum contrarians will say how much they like doing income taxes    ) But really most people don't like them.

I don't like them either... Nobody really does, but I recognize the need for them... I just go and get a CPA to do them or I ask my brother... He's training to be an accountant.

I get mine done by H&R Block. They do a good job and it takes some of the agony out of it. But it shouldn't be necessary to have a tax code so confusing that you have to pay a professional or buy TurboTax just to figure out how much you owe. That's shameful!

[Gustaf]

It's a good idea. Also, in Sweden I think there is some tax deductibility for those who have to drive long distances for their work (like in rural areas)

[Jake]

Well, they can get back to using horse-drawn carriages like the old days.

Seriously though, this plan would simply transfer a significant amount of taxes from people who largely don't drive (urban dwellers) and transfer it onto people who largely have to drive (rural dwellers). Coming from Al Gore, I'm not really surprised.

[opebo]

Well, they can get back to using horse-drawn carriages like the old days.

Seriously though, this plan would simply transfer a significant amount of taxes from people who largely don't drive (urban dwellers) and transfer it onto people who largely have to drive (rural dwellers). Coming from Al Gore, I'm not really surprised.

A fine punishment for the rural dullards - for voting Republican.

[patrick1]

Is this something that is proposed on businesses and individuals alike?

This would cripple vital industries if it were ever enacted upon businesses.

[SPC]

I've got a better idea than anybody has proposed yet on this topic:
Replace both income taxes and SS taxes with NO taxes! Great idea isn't it?

[Verily]

I've got a better idea than anybody has proposed yet on this topic:
Replace both income taxes and SS taxes with NO taxes! Great idea isn't it?

And watch the country collapse around us! Sounds like fun!


I would support such a move if there were some sort of tax benefit for people who have to drive long distances regularly, although I would contend that this does not necessarily mean rural residents who generally don't commute for as long as urban residents (and it's time, not distance, that affects CO2 output).

[MODU]

Sorry, but it's a bad idea.  I can see it now . . . the tax rate would never go down even IF CO2 levels drop AND the population increases.