Are these the comments of a bigot?

[Ebowed]

Are these the comments of a bigot?

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[Gustaf]

Shouldn't it be bigots?

[Ebowed]

Shouldn't it be bigots?

Not if you think God is responsible for the content of it.

[Gustaf]

Shouldn't it be bigots?

Not if you think God is responsible for the content of it.

I assumed you were going after God (for a brief moment I thought it would be me, actually. But don't get any ideas). However, those who believe God is responsible usually think it was sort of co-written, I thought? So, that the Matthew evangelium (if that's how you say it in English) is in some way also written by Matthew? In that case it would still be bigots.

I'd argue that coupled with anachronism, but I'll let the forum fundamentalists have the floor.

[bgwah]

Well it sure sounds like it.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Are these the comments of a bigot?

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Let me play Devil's Advocate:

Most of that is Old testament God.  Much has changed since Jesus came and saved us.

As far as the verse regarding homosexuality.. while putting them to death may be a little harsh, we can at least seek to strip them of as many of the rights and privileges that we straight people enjoy as a way to show that we, the people in charge, do not approve.

[DownWithTheLeft]

No, especially if interpret it correctly. 

[Beet]

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^^^^

Indeed, the New Testament turned the bigotry that could be taken from the Old Testament on its head. Hence Christianity.

Besides, God is God. A bigot is someone who is intolerant of

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! If you have faith that He really is the true God, then why would you want your opinion or lifestyle or identity to differ from that which God ordained? You would not.

[Gabu]

Besides, God is God. A bigot is someone who is intolerant of

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! If you have faith that He really is the true God, then why would you want your opinion or lifestyle or identity to differ from that which God ordained? You would not.

That doesn't mean that God isn't a bigot; indeed, by that definition it would certainly be the case that the God described in the Bible is indeed a bigot.  The question is whether or not you consider that a bad thing.

[John Dibble]

Let me play Devil's Advocate:

Most of that is Old testament God.  Much has changed since Jesus came and saved us.

I find it strange that a being that is supposed to have always been all-knowing, all-wise, and all-powerful would suddenly change his mind - why not do things the right way from the start?

[Ban my account ffs!]

Let me play Devil's Advocate:

Most of that is Old testament God.  Much has changed since Jesus came and saved us.

I find it strange that a being that is supposed to have always been all-knowing, all-wise, and all-powerful would suddenly change his mind - why not do things the right way from the start?

This is my interpretation of it:

God created a perfect world.

We sinned.

We were cast from the Garden as we could no longer be in God's presence with sin.

This leads to laws and customs to deal with that sin, even if they don't seem "kosher" today.  The people begged for a king.  God warned them of the oppression that can come from having a king, but gave them what they wanted.  God commanded us to follow the law of the king, as this is what we wanted.

God, knowing this would all happen, brought his son into the world to redeem us.

Jesus, being God and man, could walk with humans and he preached the way we should live as coming directly from God as God intended it, not from prophets or other 3rd sources that must interpret God's will on sinful, human terms.

Of course I am a lot more skeptical of a lot of what is written in the Bible, especially given the similarities you find when you compare the Bible to the moral codes of other cultures, but I think what sets Christianity apart from its two brother religions (Judaism and Islam) is the message of Jesus, which was overwhelmingly a message of love, peace, salvation, and brotherhood... which is what draws me to the faith and also causes me to question the motives of so many Christians who adopt a rather "social Darwanistic" (if that's a word) outlook on life despite what I believe is a rather contradicting message from Jesus Christ himself.

[Ebowed]

God created a perfect world.

We sinned.

At the very least, this is an event that God very willingly allowed to happen (and thus, due to all of the negative effects of the presence of evil in the world, God's implicitness in the state of affairs is malevolent).  And, depending on how much control God has, exactly, it's something of a contradiction (God created a perfect world, but the world he created was inherently imperfect if he allowed us to sin).

God, knowing this would all happen, brought his son into the world to redeem us.

This is one of the things I find interesting about that whole 'OT doesn't count anymore' shtick.  Supposedly the God of the New Testament is loving and caring, but it begins with a human sacrifice (Jesus).  And, if you want my candid opinion, human sacrifice is about as immoral as it gets.  It's littered throughout the OT, including a horrifying tale about God playing some sort of sick trick on Abraham to set his twelve year old son on fire.  Frankly, I don't think God changed all that much.  The New Testament's hatred and bigotry is just easier to explain away.

the message of Jesus, which was overwhelmingly a message of love, peace, salvation, and brotherhood...

Christianity would appear to me to be rather opposed to the concept of 'brotherhood', or at least I found it that way when I was a Christian.

Either way, Jesus' message of love and peace is only necessary because the same religion also espouses a threat of hellfire for those who do not (and in many cases, cannot) accept God.

Indeed, the New Testament turned the bigotry that could be taken from the Old Testament on its head. Hence Christianity.

We'd all like to think so, but the Old Testament contains such hateful, immoral teachings that I find it difficult anyone would listen to what this same God has to say.

If you have faith that He really is the true God, then why would you want your opinion or lifestyle or identity to differ from that which God ordained? You would not.

But the very fact that God's rule prohibits homosexuality is bigoted.  The status of God as the earth's creator does not give him the ability to sanction bigotry, which is defined by human standards.  We are opposed to bigotry because we find something inherently indecent about it.  If we listened only to God, we would find first that we should be bigoted about all sorts of things, and we would only make an attempt to conceal this bigotry when hoping to convert someone.

[Ebowed]

This leads to laws and customs to deal with that sin, even if they don't seem "kosher" today.  The people begged for a king.  God warned them of the oppression that can come from having a king, but gave them what they wanted.  God commanded us to follow the law of the king, as this is what we wanted.

I should add that I find this to be pretty preposterous.

We wanted the King's laws?  Read over this custom again:

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Now, perhaps the Israelites as a whole may have wanted a legal system to tie them over while they were wandering around in the desert, but the women affected in this instance--can you really say that this is what they wanted, and as such, this is why it was so?

The biblical rules like the one quoted above amounted to a legacy of centuries of the worst sort of sexism.  It was common practice for women in conservative, Christian countries to be subject to hymen inspections, and a woman whose hymen broke before marriage (which does not require sexual activity) was often subjected to all sorts of shame and harassment, and a male scapegoat deemed responsible for the act may have been put to death as a result as well.

[John Dibble]

Let me play Devil's Advocate:

Most of that is Old testament God.  Much has changed since Jesus came and saved us.

I find it strange that a being that is supposed to have always been all-knowing, all-wise, and all-powerful would suddenly change his mind - why not do things the right way from the start?

This is my interpretation of it:

God created a perfect world.

We sinned.

We were cast from the Garden as we could no longer be in God's presence with sin.

Up to this point I follow you, though I do agree with Ebowed that if God is all-knowing and all-powerful then he allowed it to happen, so he must have wanted it this way.

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Here's the point you're missing - why would he wait so long to 'get it right' so to speak? Why not allow redemption from the get go? He could just have taught all the doctrines and lessons the Bible had directly to Adam and Eve and told them to write it down then and there. Instead I'm supposed to believe that for thousands of years God was a total prick who killed thousands of people including innocent children and told us to follow the laws of kings who ordered horrendous atrocities, and then suddenly God changes his mind and starts to preach love and forgiveness.

So again, why couldn't an all-powerful, all-knowing, and supposedly all-loving god not 'get it right' the first time?

[Speed of Sound]

In short: Yes


To re-iterate some of what has been said, there are no apologies and mind-changings in all knowing beings. That isnt logically allowed. It was written in a time of bigotry, it seems only natural that it would be in the perspective of a bigot. Nothing the writers did wrong, per se, but merely in tune with society. Once things change enough from our society today, I expect some Really New Testament to come out, and explain that the world then was REALLY God's plan.

[Gustaf]

Let me play Devil's Advocate:

Most of that is Old testament God.  Much has changed since Jesus came and saved us.

I find it strange that a being that is supposed to have always been all-knowing, all-wise, and all-powerful would suddenly change his mind - why not do things the right way from the start?

This is my interpretation of it:

God created a perfect world.

We sinned.

We were cast from the Garden as we could no longer be in God's presence with sin.

Up to this point I follow you, though I do agree with Ebowed that if God is all-knowing and all-powerful then he allowed it to happen, so he must have wanted it this way.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Here's the point you're missing - why would he wait so long to 'get it right' so to speak? Why not allow redemption from the get go? He could just have taught all the doctrines and lessons the Bible had directly to Adam and Eve and told them to write it down then and there. Instead I'm supposed to believe that for thousands of years God was a total prick who killed thousands of people including innocent children and told us to follow the laws of kings who ordered horrendous atrocities, and then suddenly God changes his mind and starts to preach love and forgiveness.

So again, why couldn't an all-powerful, all-knowing, and supposedly all-loving god not 'get it right' the first time?

The Leibnitzian argument, as much as it was ridiculed by Voltaire is, I think, intellectually a safe refuge from these kind of arguments. (for those not familiar it basically says that we live in the best of worlds, taking all things into account. As good qualities one could count people making right choices out of their own free will, which would then explain the need for sins and famines and whatnot).

[Ebowed]

Once things change enough from our society today, I expect some Really New Testament to come out, and explain that the world then was REALLY God's plan.

Could you elaborate?