Louisiana close to allowing sex offenders to be surgically castrated

[soundchaser]

Any punishment by the state should be reversible/rescindable, because the state can get things wrong. (But then I'm of the opinion that NO punishment should be permanent, because the point should be rehabilitation...)

[politicallefty]

I don't even see how an originalist argument could uphold a punishment like this under the Eighth Amendment. This isn't really an area of the law I'm too familiar with, but from what I've read, chemical castration is an option for the convicted. Even then, it appears to be generally reversible. For obvious reasons, surgical castration is not reversible.

I have to say a law like this is really disturbing.

[Trans Rights Are Human Rights]

That because it the greatest solution we have right now to keep these offenders from uh repeating there assault on the innocents of society

How about locking 'em up and throwing away the key?

The problem is that prisoners sexually assault/assault/murder other prisoners all the time. Sending someone to prison doesn’t prevent them from hurting others, it just limits who they can hurt.

Then how about chemical castration? That, at least, is reversible.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Look, I'm just saying - you take a man's balls and then say "Oops, we got it wrong, you're free to go" and that man is almost definitely committing a terror attack shortly thereafter. This seems like a very bad power for the government to have, even worse than the death penalty.

[Fuzzy Bear]

That because it the greatest solution we have right now to keep these offenders from uh repeating there assault on the innocents of society

How about locking 'em up and throwing away the key?

The problem is that prisoners sexually assault/assault/murder other prisoners all the time. Sending someone to prison doesn’t prevent them from hurting others, it just limits who they can hurt.

This is true, but physical castration would not prevent a sexual predator of this type from reoffending.  

https://smart.ojp.gov/SOMAPI-fact-sheet-key-things-to-know#:~:text=Negative%20or%20adverse%20conditions%20in,self%2Dregulation%20and%20impulse%20control.

Sexual abuse is a learned behavior.

Although our understanding of the causes and origins
of sexually abusive behavior is rudimentary, research
clearly shows that sexual abuse is a learned behavior.
Negative or adverse conditions in early development may
be contributing factors. In addition, many sex offenders
engage in thinking errors to rationalize and maintain
sexually abusive behavior, and many have problems with
self-regulation and impulse control.

https://www.sdcda.org/content/preventing/sex-offenders/facts-about-sex-offenders.pdf

Sexual gratification is often not a primary motivation for a rape offender.

True. While some offenders do seek sexual gratification from the act, sexual gratification
is often not a primary motivation for a rape offender. Power, control, and anger are more
likely to be the primary motivators

This proposal is not just inhumane; it's likely to be ineffective.  Incarceration is sufficient to protect the public.  The key to controlling crime is to enforcing the laws we have and not enacting half-baked "reforms" (such as "bail reform"); it's not to pass laws that provide for any number of Draconian punishments.  This is "Feel Good Legislation" that does not enhance public safety, as is much "crime" legislation.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

That because it the greatest solution we have right now to keep these offenders from uh repeating there assault on the innocents of society

How about locking 'em up and throwing away the key?

The problem is that prisoners sexually assault/assault/murder other prisoners all the time. Sending someone to prison doesn’t prevent them from hurting others, it just limits who they can hurt.

Even if imperfect it's still a much, much better outcome to limit who people can hurt - especially when that effectively eliminates the risk to children.

[Green Line]

Its a very, very tough thing.

[Arizona Iced Tea]

This is barbaric and something you would expect to see in a 3rd world country. Maybe instead of trying to punish abusers in more cruel manners the state should aim to get them back on their feet and be a contributing member to society?

[Ancestral Republican]

I don't even see how an originalist argument could uphold a punishment like this under the Eighth Amendment. This isn't really an area of the law I'm too familiar with, but from what I've read, chemical castration is an option for the convicted. Even then, it appears to be generally reversible. For obvious reasons, surgical castration is not reversible.

I have to say a law like this is really disturbing.

Chemical castration as far as I know isn't even administered by the government in those cases - sex offenders voluntarily undergo it through non-government medical providers of their choosing. Government actors doing that would still give me pause, considering it's been used in the past to punish homosexuals (Alan Turing being a famous example.) Louisiana's legislature is doubtless full of people who think drag queens are "groomers" and I have absolutely zero confidence that this idea wouldn't be abused even if I agreed with it in principle (I do not.)

[HisGrace]

I could get behind a program that lets pedos agree to be chemically castrated in exchange for release. Absolutely should not be done to someone involuntarily, no argument for that not being "cruel and unusual punishment".

[DaleCooper]

I don't even see how an originalist argument could uphold a punishment like this under the Eighth Amendment. This isn't really an area of the law I'm too familiar with, but from what I've read, chemical castration is an option for the convicted. Even then, it appears to be generally reversible. For obvious reasons, surgical castration is not reversible.

I have to say a law like this is really disturbing.

Chemical castration as far as I know isn't even administered by the government in those cases - sex offenders voluntarily undergo it through non-government medical providers of their choosing. Government actors doing that would still give me pause, considering it's been used in the past to punish homosexuals (Alan Turing being a famous example.) Louisiana's legislature is doubtless full of people who think drag queens are "groomers" and I have absolutely zero confidence that this idea wouldn't be abused even if I agreed with it in principle (I do not.)

I think Turing was "voluntarily" chemically castrated, as in he was given the choice between prison or chemical castration. Obviously I hope that America would never criminalize homosexuality again, but I have absolutely no faith whatsoever that Republican judges would prevent that from happening.

Even if we are talking about actual sexual predators, I don't like the idea of the government deliberately damaging a person's body as punishment. If you really stop and think about it, there is no difference between this bill and some medieval Arabian kingdom severing the arm of a thief. It genuinely makes me more uncomfortable than the death penalty, although I have recently come around to being nearly 100% opposed to that too.

[Frodo]

That because it the greatest solution we have right now to keep these offenders from uh repeating there assault on the innocents of society

How about locking 'em up and throwing away the key?

The problem is that prisoners sexually assault/assault/murder other prisoners all the time. Sending someone to prison doesn’t prevent them from hurting others, it just limits who they can hurt.

This is true, but physical castration would not prevent a sexual predator of this type from reoffending.  

https://smart.ojp.gov/SOMAPI-fact-sheet-key-things-to-know#:~:text=Negative%20or%20adverse%20conditions%20in,self%2Dregulation%20and%20impulse%20control.

Sexual abuse is a learned behavior.

Although our understanding of the causes and origins
of sexually abusive behavior is rudimentary, research
clearly shows that sexual abuse is a learned behavior.
Negative or adverse conditions in early development may
be contributing factors. In addition, many sex offenders
engage in thinking errors to rationalize and maintain
sexually abusive behavior, and many have problems with
self-regulation and impulse control.

https://www.sdcda.org/content/preventing/sex-offenders/facts-about-sex-offenders.pdf

Sexual gratification is often not a primary motivation for a rape offender.

True. While some offenders do seek sexual gratification from the act, sexual gratification
is often not a primary motivation for a rape offender. Power, control, and anger are more
likely to be the primary motivators

This proposal is not just inhumane; it's likely to be ineffective.  Incarceration is sufficient to protect the public.  The key to controlling crime is to enforcing the laws we have and not enacting half-baked "reforms" (such as "bail reform"); it's not to pass laws that provide for any number of Draconian punishments.  This is "Feel Good Legislation" that does not enhance public safety, as is much "crime" legislation.

Fuzzy Bear and I are on the same side for once it seems! 

[Reactionary Libertarian]

Based! I support free “gender-affirmative care” for violent criminals. Castration is proven to work for sex offenders. Let’s also bring back actually using the death penalty, and flogging too, and we’ll be back on the right track of civilized justice instead of slave morality.

[Alcibiades]

Based! I support free “gender-affirmative care” for violent criminals. Castration is proven to work for sex offenders. Let’s also bring back actually using the death penalty, and flogging too, and we’ll be back on the right track of civilized justice instead of slave morality.

It’s amusing how few people who like to drop this term have any idea what it means. Violent revenge fantasies like this were exactly what Nietzsche was deploring.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

FWIW as horrific as the crime mentioned in the OP is, it's hard to make a case this would've addressed it in any way, the reason he got out early as the excerpt notes is his charge was reduced. Blame the prosecution on that one (or the police if they mishandled evidence thus causing the charge reduction, etc.) This wouldn't fix things.

[Farmlands]

FWIW as horrific as the crime mentioned in the OP is, it's hard to make a case this would've addressed it in any way, the reason he got out early as the excerpt notes is his charge was reduced. Blame the prosecution on that one (or the police if they mishandled evidence thus causing the charge reduction, etc.) This wouldn't fix things.

Presumably the argument is that the procedure would remove his sex desire, preventing the repeat offense in this case and others from occuring in the first place; a line of thinking which honestly seems to have its merit here.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

FWIW as horrific as the crime mentioned in the OP is, it's hard to make a case this would've addressed it in any way, the reason he got out early as the excerpt notes is his charge was reduced. Blame the prosecution on that one (or the police if they mishandled evidence thus causing the charge reduction, etc.) This wouldn't fix things.

Presumably the argument is that the procedure would remove his sex desire, preventing the repeat offense in this case and others from occuring in the first place; a line of thinking which honestly seems to have its merit here.

But he wouldn't have qualified for it as a penalty anyway because of the reduction in his sentence.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Based! I support free “gender-affirmative care” for violent criminals. Castration is proven to work for sex offenders. Let’s also bring back actually using the death penalty, and flogging too, and we’ll be back on the right track of civilized justice instead of slave morality.

There is nothing more barbaric than a reactionary who fetishizes being "civilized".

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

Based! I support free “gender-affirmative care” for violent criminals. Castration is proven to work for sex offenders. Let’s also bring back actually using the death penalty, and flogging too, and we’ll be back on the right track of civilized justice instead of slave morality.

Don't cut yourself on that edge and welcome to my ignore list.

[Mr. Reactionary]

I don't even see how an originalist argument could uphold a punishment like this under the Eighth Amendment.

https://www.monticello.org/research-education/thomas-jefferson-encyclopedia/bill-64/

[SWE]

I don't even see how an originalist argument could uphold a punishment like this under the Eighth Amendment.

https://www.monticello.org/research-education/thomas-jefferson-encyclopedia/bill-64/

This describes a bill that failed to pass and was criticized by contemporaries (including at least one signatory of the Constitution, George Wythe) as "revolting." Sounds like decent evidence that at the time of the founding, this would have been considered cruel and unusual punishment

[Badger]

That because it the greatest solution we have right now to keep these offenders from uh repeating there assault on the innocents of society

How about locking 'em up and throwing away the key?

The problem is that prisoners sexually assault/assault/murder other prisoners all the time. Sending someone to prison doesn’t prevent them from hurting others, it just limits who they can hurt.

And I abso-freaking-lutely guarantee you that if you chemically castrate sex offenders they are going to be more likely to angrily sexually assault anyone they can in prison or otherwise. Think they can't do so without a functioning dick? Use your imagination.

Also, a large number of so-called child molestation cases are like swatting flies with a sledgehammer. Usually involving a 14 or 15 year old girl having sex with someone in their late teens to early twenties, or sometimes a married guy in their 30s or 40s hit up on a cop sting with the cop pretending to be 15- never younger. Creepy and worthy of criminal prosecution? Sure. But is sexual contact with a woman just a year under the statutory age of consent, or even being lured in a sting by a cop claiming to be one, really make that other person a "child molester", let alone remotely needing chemical castration or life in prison as some here suggest? It's bad enough that in Most states the Adam Walsh Act basically mandates such people be registrants for around 25 years without any chance of early release.

[DaleCooper]

I don't even see how an originalist argument could uphold a punishment like this under the Eighth Amendment.

https://www.monticello.org/research-education/thomas-jefferson-encyclopedia/bill-64/

This describes a bill that failed to pass and was criticized by contemporaries (including at least one signatory of the Constitution, George Wythe) as "revolting." Sounds like decent evidence that at the time of the founding, this would have been considered cruel and unusual punishment

I posted about this the other day, but deleted it so I would have time to read the article more closely, but this example actually lines up with a lot of the criticism in this thread. For one, it was deemed to be cruel and unusual punishment by at least some of the old-school politicians back then. Thomas Jefferson even voiced concerns about the harsh penalties motivating false allegations.

Plus, ironically, Jefferson was a sexual predator himself. Obviously no Virginia law enforcement would've had any sympathy for an enslaved woman or any black person at all, but if this bill had passed and been fairly enforced then Thomas Jefferson would've been castrated as a rapist under his own law. Another anecdote to support the idea that many of the men supporting these absurd bills are sexual deviants themselves. 

[SWE]

That because it the greatest solution we have right now to keep these offenders from uh repeating there assault on the innocents of society

How about locking 'em up and throwing away the key?

The problem is that prisoners sexually assault/assault/murder other prisoners all the time. Sending someone to prison doesn’t prevent them from hurting others, it just limits who they can hurt.

And I abso-freaking-lutely guarantee you that if you chemically castrate sex offenders they are going to be more likely to angrily sexually assault anyone they can in prison or otherwise. Think they can't do so without a functioning dick? Use your imagination.

Also, a large number of so-called child molestation cases are like swatting flies with a sledgehammer. Usually involving a 14 or 15 year old girl having sex with someone in their late teens to early twenties, or sometimes a married guy in their 30s or 40s hit up on a cop sting with the cop pretending to be 15- never younger. Creepy and worthy of criminal prosecution? Sure. But is sexual contact with a woman just a year under the statutory age of consent, or even being lured in a sting by a cop claiming to be one, really make that other person a "child molester", let alone remotely needing chemical castration or life in prison as some here suggest? It's bad enough that in Most states the Adam Walsh Act basically mandates such people be registrants for around 25 years without any chance of early release.

I worked on several cases at the firm I worked at involving dudes who talked to undercover cops posing as minors on dating apps and the dudes would turn down the cop's advances, make it 100% clear that they aren't interested in meeting them, let alone sleeping with them, and they still get arrested because in some states, just having a conversation with a kid about sex can get you in real trouble.

A lot of these undercover stings are complete waste of law enforcement resources just for the sake of finding someone somewhere to convict. Obviously if you get someone who's enthusiastically "yes I would love to have sex with you, a 15 year old, let's meet in my creepy van, don't tell your parents" that's fair to go after, but there's no reason to continue these conversations after you get the first "sorry I'm not interested, you're too young for me."

(that being said, I can nitpick your post slightly - I did encounter one of these cases where the cop was posing as a 13 year old, so they do pose as younger than 15 sometimes)

[TheReckoning]

That because it the greatest solution we have right now to keep these offenders from uh repeating there assault on the innocents of society

How about locking 'em up and throwing away the key?

The problem is that prisoners sexually assault/assault/murder other prisoners all the time. Sending someone to prison doesn’t prevent them from hurting others, it just limits who they can hurt.

And I abso-freaking-lutely guarantee you that if you chemically castrate sex offenders they are going to be more likely to angrily sexually assault anyone they can in prison or otherwise. Think they can't do so without a functioning dick? Use your imagination.

Why? Sending them to prison for 10+ years, they’ll shrug, but chemical castration is some kind of red line?