Average starting pay for a new teacher is $35-45k/year. What SHOULD it be?

[Orwell]

Less. Have prison inmates do it for 25 cents an hour

[dead0man]

Fantastic teachers should make say 100K on average. Far more teachers I suspect should be fired because their value is below the minimum wage. I have dissented all my life from the idea that teachers by and large should be paid the same, and can't be fired unless they molest their students as it were.

or they pay him $1.7 mil over 20 years (with full benefits) in 2018 he made $133k to do nothing.  His now adult victims have to work to eat, while their abuser plays on his phone all day.  DOE incompetence and overly powerful unions are to blame.  No one will suffer for their failures though.  In fact, we can probably assume they've all been promoted and probably make more than the abuser does...which again, is $133k/year.  Everyone knows he's guilty, he admitted to it, but there is, apparently, nothing that can be done.

America!

 Oh please. Sure go ahead and pick on one administrative blunder, however grotesque, to  mischaracterize and criticize an entire sector of is prosector of millions of public employees.

it is a really REALLY one bad though.  Also, why would you think he was the only one?  He's not.  To be fair, this is a NYC problem.  Most other teachers unions will let a pedo get fired.  Imagine if they didn't even reach that low bar?

Teacher's Unions, slightly better than the Catholic Church!

[Badger]

Fantastic teachers should make say 100K on average. Far more teachers I suspect should be fired because their value is below the minimum wage. I have dissented all my life from the idea that teachers by and large should be paid the same, and can't be fired unless they molest their students as it were.

or they pay him $1.7 mil over 20 years (with full benefits) in 2018 he made $133k to do nothing.  His now adult victims have to work to eat, while their abuser plays on his phone all day.  DOE incompetence and overly powerful unions are to blame.  No one will suffer for their failures though.  In fact, we can probably assume they've all been promoted and probably make more than the abuser does...which again, is $133k/year.  Everyone knows he's guilty, he admitted to it, but there is, apparently, nothing that can be done.

America!

 Oh please. Sure go ahead and pick on one administrative blunder, however grotesque, to  mischaracterize and criticize an entire sector of is prosector of millions of public employees.

it is a really REALLY one bad though.  Also, why would you think he was the only one?  He's not.  To be fair, this is a NYC problem.  Most other teachers unions will let a pedo get fired.  Imagine if they didn't even reach that low bar?

Teacher's Unions, slightly better than the Catholic Church!

Oh, no doubt 5his is a f##k up of the highest magnitude, though o e made by the administration rather than the union.

But yeah, if you're trying to compare this incident to claim teacher's unions have the massive problem with pedophilia as the Catholic Church, well, overused as the term can be, that is literally peak libertard.

[The Undefeatable Debbie Stabenow]

Middle/High School:

Latin/Math/Chemistry/Physics(/Computer Science/Economics/Philosophy if offered) - $80k
Everything Else - $50k

I am morbidly curious as to how you would explain the rationale for this, even though I'm sure I will hate it.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Ideally the average teachers get paid more, but the bad ones still face consequences. For instance the worst 10-20% should get pay cuts or be fired while the best should be paid higher- like at least $80,000 in SF.

Although my sixth grade teacher (in the east bay) got about $120,000 per year.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

This thread reminds me that a very large proportion of posters on the forum are airheads. The salaries of teachers are not primarily determined by the labor market, they are set by politicians in state legislatures. As teachers are compensated extremely poorly relative to comparable occupations requiring a BA, it's no surprise that the typical Math teacher will be some bottom of the barrel Math major - anyone with more talent or skill will select into an occupation that pays. For this reason, teacher quality in the US is abysmal - if being a teacher isn't a path to upward mobility, why would anyone bright select into this career?





I have some very unpopular views on these matters. I do not think it's necessary to increase teacher salaries in primary schools by all that much - teaching at this level is a lot more like babysitting than anything else - but it is an imperative to massively ratchet up salaries of high school teachers.

[jojoju1998]

Ideally the average teachers get paid more, but the bad ones still face consequences. For instance the worst 10-20% should get pay cuts or be fired while the best should be paid higher- like at least $80,000 in SF.

Although my sixth grade teacher (in the east bay) got about $120,000 per year.

120k in the Easy Bay is like peanuts compared to the cost of living.

[parochial boy]

This thread reminds me that a very large proportion of posters on the forum are airheads. The salaries of teachers are not primarily determined by the labor market, they are set by politicians in state legislatures. As teachers are compensated extremely poorly relative to comparable occupations requiring a BA, it's no surprise that the typical Math teacher will be some bottom of the barrel Math major - anyone with more talent or skill will select into an occupation that pays. For this reason, teacher quality in the US is abysmal - if being a teacher isn't a path to upward mobility, why would anyone bright select into this career?

I’d largely agree in the sentiment but with a couple of disagreements. I mean, I don’t want to come across as lecturing anyone about how it works in the US because obviously I’m not the best placed to know. But going on people I know who have become teachers, it often is out of enthusiasm or a level of passion or commitment to the profession. Money is not the sole motivation for career choices for very many people, even if yeah the promise of bad pay will be an active disincentive. The problem is that the crap salaries combined with insufficient resources to actually to the job are obviously going to take their toll on a teacher’s ability- and even with the best will in the world- their motivation to to the job. Admittedly that calls for higher salaries whichever way you look at it.

I’d also disagree that primary school teaching is not a job that warrants a high skilled and well paid staff. It is at primary school age that the worst of the social inequalities in terms of education are reproduced, and even a great high school teacher is limited in what the my can do to mitigate that. And yes, the schools themselves have a limited responsibility for the, and a limited ability to even mitigate that. But I do think that it emphasizes how important a primary school teacher can be in terms of mitigating some of the inequalities  that kids from lower income background suffer from.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

This thread reminds me that a very large proportion of posters on the forum are airheads. The salaries of teachers are not primarily determined by the labor market, they are set by politicians in state legislatures. As teachers are compensated extremely poorly relative to comparable occupations requiring a BA, it's no surprise that the typical Math teacher will be some bottom of the barrel Math major - anyone with more talent or skill will select into an occupation that pays. For this reason, teacher quality in the US is abysmal - if being a teacher isn't a path to upward mobility, why would anyone bright select into this career?

I’d largely agree in the sentiment but with a couple of disagreements. I mean, I don’t want to come across as lecturing anyone about how it works in the US because obviously I’m not the best placed to know. But going on people I know who have become teachers, it often is out of enthusiasm or a level of passion or commitment to the profession. Money is not the sole motivation for career choices for very many people, even if yeah the promise of bad pay will be an active disincentive. The problem is that the crap salaries combined with insufficient resources to actually to the job are obviously going to take their toll on a teacher’s ability- and even with the best will in the world- their motivation to to the job. Admittedly that calls for higher salaries whichever way you look at it.

I’d also disagree that primary school teaching is not a job that warrants a high skilled and well paid staff. It is at primary school age that the worst of the social inequalities in terms of education are reproduced, and even a great high school teacher is limited in what the my can do to mitigate that. And yes, the schools themselves have a limited responsibility for the, and a limited ability to even mitigate that. But I do think that it emphasizes how important a primary school teacher can be in terms of mitigating some of the inequalities  that kids from lower income background suffer from.

The United States is a country where most services and goods are commodified, the social safety net is limited and where there's more inequality in the provision of decommodified services like primary/secondary education. For this reason, salaries/wages are more pivotal in influencing career choices. It's also important to note that the "outside options" of potential teachers are much more attractive than in Europe because there's less wage/salary compression here. Teacher salaries in Europe seem to be pretty similar to the US but the salaries of white collar workers in the US are much higher than in Europe and this is before you take taxes/transfers into account! In short, teaching in the US is very distinct from teaching in Europe - it isn't seen as prestigious or respectable profession here, which deters potential teachers. This has led to a crisis of sorts over the past 5 years, with massive teacher shortages in many states, where PE teachers teach Chemistry. Anyone seeking a 4 year degree interested in STEM will do just about anything before considering teaching, which is a real travesty...

I agree that primary school teachers should be very well-trained and compensated but it clearly requires less training in terms of specialized subject matter expertise. It isn't important for a 4th grade teacher to have specialist knowledge in anything but child pedagogy. Secondary school teachers need to possess specialist knowledge and receive a great deal of training in pedagogical practices - the skill requirements are much higher and, correspondingly, their pay should be higher as well. I was being far too flippant in that post in hindsight.

[Former President tack50]

This thread reminds me that a very large proportion of posters on the forum are airheads. The salaries of teachers are not primarily determined by the labor market, they are set by politicians in state legislatures. As teachers are compensated extremely poorly relative to comparable occupations requiring a BA, it's no surprise that the typical Math teacher will be some bottom of the barrel Math major - anyone with more talent or skill will select into an occupation that pays. For this reason, teacher quality in the US is abysmal - if being a teacher isn't a path to upward mobility, why would anyone bright select into this career?

Like parochial_boy, maybe things just work differently in the US, but at least here there are various reasons why people would want to go into high school teaching beyond raw salaries; most notably:

-More vacation time
-Less working hours (normally 9-14, as opposed to 9-17; plus no overtime)
-A less stressful job in some ways (I am personally of the opinion that having to deal with 25+ teenagers is mega stressful but some people will consider it a lesser evil when compared to dealing with project deadlines and what not)
-A job where it is legally impossible to fire you (this does not seem like much but it really came in handy for my family during the Great Recession of 2008)

Granted perhaps not all of these apply to the US (I can't imagine that last one applies for instance) but teaching still has some benefits that are not in salary. And there are a lot of people who will choose a less stressful, lower paid job over a very well paid but very stressful job.

Oh and even the salaries (which I discussed in a previous post; 50k in low CoL areas, 75k in high CoL areas) did not seem that low to me. Sure they are not amazing, but how many say, Math graduates are going to achieve significantly higher salaries than that? Perhaps a raise is in order, but it is not going to be a massive one.

Something I did not mention in my previous post is that teacher salaries here are not that far from what people will earn in private industries, so perhaps more people are enticed to teaching. But I would not say that this is because US teachers are underpaid, but rather because US engineers and what not are overpaid (or perhaps Spanish engineers are underpaid and I'm just biased that way )

Finally and related to the previous point, it also depends on the undergraduate degree I guess. Sure, if math or engineering undergraduates can go get more money elsewhere they probably will (teacher shortages, at least here, tend to be located into math and physics teachers for this reason). But for people who are say, philology or history graduates, teaching is going to be the main way out?

Edit: nvm, you seem to have mostly adressed many of these points already

[DC Al Fine]

I agree with Tack.

Like parochial_boy, maybe things just work differently in the US, but at least here there are various reasons why people would want to go into high school teaching beyond raw salaries; most notably:

-More vacation time
-Less working hours (normally 9-14, as opposed to 9-17; plus no overtime)
-A less stressful job in some ways (I am personally of the opinion that having to deal with 25+ teenagers is mega stressful but some people will consider it a lesser evil when compared to dealing with project deadlines and what not)
-A job where it is legally impossible to fire you (this does not seem like much but it really came in handy for my family during the Great Recession of 2008)

Yes, an occupation's compensation package is much more than base salary, so it's not really accurate to compare jobs with just base salary. This goes doubly so for teachers who have benefits that are very different from the typical range for normal office jobs, and usually much more favourable.

Oh and even the salaries (which I discussed in a previous post; 50k in low CoL areas, 75k in high CoL areas) did not seem that low to me. Sure they are not amazing, but how many say, Math graduates are going to achieve significantly higher salaries than that? Perhaps a raise is in order, but it is not going to be a massive one.

I can't speak for everywhere, but my province pays teachers on the same seniority scale, regardless of what they teach. The province pays somewhat more than the average for teachers in America.

Nova Scotia's school system has a perpetual surplus of elementary, literature, and history teachers trying to get permanent positions, a shortage of French teachers, and neither a surplus nor a shortage of math and science teachers. That tells us a lot about what sort of wages they can achieve outside of the school system.

[Alcibiades]

Nova Scotia's school system has a perpetual surplus of elementary, literature, and history teachers trying to get permanent positions, a shortage of French teachers, and neither a surplus nor a shortage of math and science teachers. That tells us a lot about what sort of wages they can achieve outside of the school system.

Completely off-topic, but I was interested by the bolded - is this because bilingual people are in the privileged position of being the only ones able to access certain jobs in the federal civil service in Canada?

[DS0816]

I recommend people not go into teaching.

(The fact that this topic exists says enough with explaining why.)

[jojoju1998]

My 9th grade math teacher, was hired because she wanted to teach Chinese, and was forced to teach math as a requirement.

My 10th grade math teacher was a physical education Major with a Minor in math.

[DC Al Fine]

Nova Scotia's school system has a perpetual surplus of elementary, literature, and history teachers trying to get permanent positions, a shortage of French teachers, and neither a surplus nor a shortage of math and science teachers. That tells us a lot about what sort of wages they can achieve outside of the school system.

Completely off-topic, but I was interested by the bolded - is this because bilingual people are in the privileged position of being the only ones able to access certain jobs in the federal civil service in Canada?

Among other things, yes. For example Canada Revenue Agency is currently offering bilingual call centre jobs in my city, which don't require a degree and pay more than the starting wage for a teacher in Nova Scotia.

Other factors include:

a) French immersion is popular among posh Anglos such that the portion of students being educated in French in parts of English-Canada far exceeds the portion of the population that speaks French  (e.g. Nova Scotia is about 3% Franco, 10% bilingual, but ~15% of students are educated in French, concentrated in upper middle class suburbs of Halifax)

b) French teachers in the English system do not have to be bilingual. They just need certain number of French credits in university. French isn't exactly a common degree in the way History might be for students starting a degree without a plan, so even non-bilingual French positions go unfilled.

[vitoNova]

Try to snag a DoDEA job if you insist going into that career field.  The government literally pays you to move (and teach) in Japan, Germany, Korea, UK, etc...

I met lots of American chicas in Germany who did exactly that (mostly in Mannheim, before it shut down)

[Cokeland Saxton]

The good teachers should get twice what they make.

[jojoju1998]

The good teachers should get twice what they make.

You can't measure good. That's the problem.

Even if a teacher tries his or her very best in a low ranking, low income school, the result will be medicore all the same.

[dead0man]

The good teachers should get twice what they make.

You can't measure good. That's the problem.

Even if a teacher tries his or her very best in a low ranking, low income school, the result will be medicore all the same.

what kind of stupid ass system (no doubt designed by an ex-teacher) compares a teacher in a low ranking, low income school to one that isn't?  I was under the impression that most schools have more than one teacher, why wouldn't the ranking just compare teachers in the same kind of situation.  It's already hard to measure how good a teacher is, why make it even less accurate.....oh....OH.....duh, the unions certainly do NOT want a good system to measure how good a specific teacher is (for obvious reasons, I can explain if you want....I understand some of you have huge blind spots when it comes to the negative aspects of unions), so, we can assume the unions are the ones that came up with, or at least approved of a ranking system that pitted teachers in poor, dumb districts against teachers teaching to rich, smart kids.

I will assume I'm correct unless one of our many, many teachers comes into explain where I'm wrong.

[Blue3]

The good teachers should get twice what they make.

You can't measure good. That's the problem.

Even if a teacher tries his or her very best in a low ranking, low income school, the result will be medicore all the same.

what kind of stupid ass system (no doubt designed by an ex-teacher) compares a teacher in a low ranking, low income school to one that isn't?  

Most of the school districts I’m aware of do this. That’s why my state government took over our capital’s school district and asked teachers to take out thousands in loans for more certifications, or be fired. They were also given no breaks despite the pandemic and the 6 months of online learning and year of hybrid learning, instead punished because standardized scores dropped during the pandemic . At least in the case of Providence, it’s too many layers of oversight and no one actually in charge. Unions don’t always make the best decision, but blaming them as the villain as the intellectually lazy way out.

[dead0man]

The good teachers should get twice what they make.

You can't measure good. That's the problem.

Even if a teacher tries his or her very best in a low ranking, low income school, the result will be medicore all the same.

what kind of stupid ass system (no doubt designed by an ex-teacher) compares a teacher in a low ranking, low income school to one that isn't? 

Most of the school districts I’m aware of do this. That’s why my state government took over our capital’s school district and asked teachers to take out thousands in loans for more certifications, or be fired. They were also given no breaks despite the pandemic and the 6 months of online learning and year of hybrid learning, instead punished because standardized scores dropped during the pandemic . At least in the case of Providence, it’s too many layers of oversight and no one actually in charge. Unions don’t always make the best decision, but blaming them as the villain as the intellectually lazy way out.

I don't doubt that the true villain in this story is govt, it usually is

[Mr. Smith]

The good teachers should get twice what they make.

You can't measure good. That's the problem.

Even if a teacher tries his or her very best in a low ranking, low income school, the result will be medicore all the same.

what kind of stupid ass system (no doubt designed by an ex-teacher) compares a teacher in a low ranking, low income school to one that isn't? 

Most of the school districts I’m aware of do this. That’s why my state government took over our capital’s school district and asked teachers to take out thousands in loans for more certifications, or be fired. They were also given no breaks despite the pandemic and the 6 months of online learning and year of hybrid learning, instead punished because standardized scores dropped during the pandemic . At least in the case of Providence, it’s too many layers of oversight and no one actually in charge. Unions don’t always make the best decision, but blaming them as the villain as the intellectually lazy way out.

I don't doubt that the true villain in this story is govt, it usually is

Only because the govt is usually hijacked by people that don't believe in government or public education by itself.

[dead0man]

Only because the govt is usually hijacked by people that don't believe in government or public education by itself.

I don't understand what you're getting at here.