"Traditionis custodes": RatRome trying to cut back the Latin Mass

[Georg Ebner]

Frightened by the LatinMass' success especially among the young "the anus-church" (Beatified Anne Cathrin Emmerick) tries to noone's surprise limitating it:

https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/motu_proprio/documents/20210716-motu-proprio-traditionis-custodes.html

Personally i am anyWay glad to have spiritually&intellectually also on the surface no longer anything in common with anticlerical clerics and antichristian "Christians", but it's sad for the further fate of semiTradis.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Hope Archbishop Lefebvre sees this, bro.

[PSOL]

Can you provide a general background on what the Latin Mass is and what led to this decision?

[LabourJersey]

Can you provide a general background on what the Latin Mass is and what led to this decision?

The Latin Mass is pretty much what it sounds like: the Roman Catholic liturgy recited in Latin, like it was before about 1962, when the Vatican II conference declared that masses should be celebrated in the vernacular language of the congregation.

Many, many theological conservatives in the Church opposed this and viewed it as a betrayal of Catholic teaching. It's continued in conservative pockets and widely seen by reformist Catholics as a way to divide the Church, hence why Francis wants to restrict it.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Can you provide a general background on what the Latin Mass is and what led to this decision?

The Latin Mass is pretty much what it sounds like: the Roman Catholic liturgy recited in Latin, like it was before about 1962, when the Vatican II conference declared that masses should be celebrated in the vernacular language of the congregation.

Many, many theological conservatives in the Church opposed this and viewed it as a betrayal of Catholic teaching. It's continued in conservative pockets and widely seen by reformist Catholics as a way to divide the Church, hence why Francis wants to restrict it.

This is a good tl;dr, but it should also be mentioned that when Benedict XVI allowed more widespread celebration of the pre-1970 Mass (Vatican II began in 1962 but 1970 was when the current Mass form was implemented), the hope was that this would help reintegrate the people who preferred it into the Catholic mainstream. Pope Francis's finding is that the exact opposite has occurred, with the older form of the Mass becoming "more mainstream" as a shibboleth for those opposed to Catholic teaching from the right.

[LabourJersey]

Can you provide a general background on what the Latin Mass is and what led to this decision?

The Latin Mass is pretty much what it sounds like: the Roman Catholic liturgy recited in Latin, like it was before about 1962, when the Vatican II conference declared that masses should be celebrated in the vernacular language of the congregation.

Many, many theological conservatives in the Church opposed this and viewed it as a betrayal of Catholic teaching. It's continued in conservative pockets and widely seen by reformist Catholics as a way to divide the Church, hence why Francis wants to restrict it.

This is a good tl;dr, but it should also be mentioned that when Benedict XVI allowed more widespread celebration of the pre-1970 Mass (Vatican II began in 1962 but 1970 was when the current Mass form was implemented), the hope was that this would help reintegrate the people who preferred it into the Catholic mainstream. Pope Francis's finding is that the exact opposite has occurred, with the older form of the Mass becoming "more mainstream" as a shibboleth for those opposed to Catholic teaching from the right.

Didn't know that the vernacular Mass didn't begin until 1970, actually.

[bore]

Can you provide a general background on what the Latin Mass is and what led to this decision?

The Latin Mass is pretty much what it sounds like: the Roman Catholic liturgy recited in Latin, like it was before about 1962, when the Vatican II conference declared that masses should be celebrated in the vernacular language of the congregation.

Many, many theological conservatives in the Church opposed this and viewed it as a betrayal of Catholic teaching. It's continued in conservative pockets and widely seen by reformist Catholics as a way to divide the Church, hence why Francis wants to restrict it.

To split hairs, the difference between the two forms of the mass is one of structure and not language. While the tridentine mass must be said in latin and the novus ordo form is usually said in the vernacular, it is perfectly possible (for instance I know the main catholic church in Cambridge does this) for it to be offered in latin. That is if you merely translate the 1970 mass into latin you end up with something quite different from the extraordinary form.

[Georg Ebner]

Can you provide a general background on what the Latin Mass is and what led to this decision?

Vatican II conference declared that masses should be celebrated in the vernacular language of the congregation.

No, the rather conservative document - it was released at the beginning of Vat.II - declared only, that InTroitus, Lectio & Evangelium should be read in VernacularLanguage and repetitions be abolished.
Even 1970 the cardinals were surprised&shocked, when they had to watch the first celebration of the Novus Ordo Missae by its creator, a mediocre TechnicianSoul nomine Annibale [sic] Bugnini...

[Georg Ebner]

To split hairs, the difference between the two forms of the mass is one of structure and not language.

Exactly. The LatinMass is theocentric (priest celebrating versus DEUM), the NewMass anthropocentric (priest as a ShowMaster versus populum).

[Georg Ebner]

The letter of His Holeness to the bishops is even more shameless - openly demanding, that "those who are rooted in the previous form of celebration and need to return in due time to the Roman Rite promulgated by Saints Paul VI and John Paul II":

https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/letters/2021/documents/20210716-lettera-vescovi-liturgia.html

Reassuring to have nothing in common with such creatures.

[afleitch]

His Holeness

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Are you a Sedevacantist?

[Georg Ebner]

Are you a Sedevacantist?

No.
We Catholics consider - not totally unknown to Your country's Orthodox [whose ritus i attend, too] - the Church to be (in analogy to HIS life on earth) HIS Mystical Body in WorldHistory. Now HIS enemies have obviously taken control of the visible part, analogous to the death of HIS body (but not HIS soul).
The most ridiculous aspect of those antiChristians is, that their ideas were en vogue 300 years ago: The communistic tramps of the XXIth (incl. intellectual non-entities like pope Francis) are only a holdless parody of the socialistic proles of the XXth, who inherited vulgarily the liberal bourgeoisie of the XIXth, who had been a tasteless mirror of the "enlightened" aristocrats of the XVIIIth. Nihil novae sub bove...
While on the other hand religiosity would have already had its resurrection in ROUSSEAU&romanticism, but so far limited to few genii: "As long as the Enlightenment is not dead - only now it is spreading into the last corner of the earth and penetrates the last social layers - german thinking between 1770 and 1830 remains the most modern mindset." (GOMEZ DAVILA)

[Georg Ebner]

Are you a Sedevacantist?

M.MOSEBACH, a prominent german novelist - was so fascinated of certain chants in Georgia ending disharmonically, that He was living for months in a monastery in Your country. He tried now and again to speak English with His neighbour at the table, but with no success. At His departure the monk said to my acquaintance "Schweinsteiger" (german FamilyName) ...

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

His Holeness

Didn't catch that one. Real classy, Georg.

[Orthogonian Society Treasurer]

Can you provide a general background on what the Latin Mass is and what led to this decision?

The Latin Mass is pretty much what it sounds like: the Roman Catholic liturgy recited in Latin, like it was before about 1962, when the Vatican II conference declared that masses should be celebrated in the vernacular language of the congregation.

Many, many theological conservatives in the Church opposed this and viewed it as a betrayal of Catholic teaching. It's continued in conservative pockets and widely seen by reformist Catholics as a way to divide the Church, hence why Francis wants to restrict it.

This is a good tl;dr, but it should also be mentioned that when Benedict XVI allowed more widespread celebration of the pre-1970 Mass (Vatican II began in 1962 but 1970 was when the current Mass form was implemented), the hope was that this would help reintegrate the people who preferred it into the Catholic mainstream. Pope Francis's finding is that the exact opposite has occurred, with the older form of the Mass becoming "more mainstream" as a shibboleth for those opposed to Catholic teaching from the right.

The difficulty is that the Holy Father's findings as presented in Traditions Custodes don't track with reality. The small handful of rad trads and assorted weirdos who genuinely do sow division in the Church and denigrate the Ordinary Form were never going to Diocesan TLMs in the first place; these people have their own chapels and Mass centres which were around long before Summorum Pontificum was promulgated. The people hurt by the Holy Father's decision are faithful Catholics in full Communion with Rome who have often times sacrificed and bent over backwards to maintain the unity of that Communion in the face of outrageous scandal and pastoral negligence. The message of this Motu is that their sacrifices have been in vain.

[MaxQue]

Are you a Sedevacantist?

No.
We Catholics consider - not totally unknown to Your country's Orthodox [whose ritus i attend, too] - the Church to be (in analogy to HIS life on earth) HIS Mystical Body in WorldHistory. Now HIS enemies have obviously taken control of the visible part, analogous to the death of HIS body (but not HIS soul).
The most ridiculous aspect of those antiChristians is, that their ideas were en vogue 300 years ago: The communistic tramps of the XXIth (incl. intellectual non-entities like pope Francis) are only a holdless parody of the socialistic proles of the XXth, who inherited vulgarily the liberal bourgeoisie of the XIXth, who had been a tasteless mirror of the "enlightened" aristocrats of the XVIIIth. Nihil novae sub bove...
While on the other hand religiosity would have already had its resurrection in ROUSSEAU&romanticism, but so far limited to few genii: "As long as the Enlightenment is not dead - only now it is spreading into the last corner of the earth and penetrates the last social layers - german thinking between 1770 and 1830 remains the most modern mindset." (GOMEZ DAVILA)

That hodgepodge of centuries-old and negation of papal infallibility shows you are not a Catholic.
The Latin Mass is done and if you cannot accept it, you are not a Catholic.

[Georg Ebner]

Are you a Sedevacantist?

No.
We Catholics consider - not totally unknown to Your country's Orthodox [whose ritus i attend, too] - the Church to be (in analogy to HIS life on earth) HIS Mystical Body in WorldHistory. Now HIS enemies have obviously taken control of the visible part, analogous to the death of HIS body (but not HIS soul).
The most ridiculous aspect of those antiChristians is, that their ideas were en vogue 300 years ago: The communistic tramps of the XXIth (incl. intellectual non-entities like pope Francis) are only a holdless parody of the socialistic proles of the XXth, who inherited vulgarily the liberal bourgeoisie of the XIXth, who had been a tasteless mirror of the "enlightened" aristocrats of the XVIIIth. Nihil novae sub bove...
While on the other hand religiosity would have already had its resurrection in ROUSSEAU&romanticism, but so far limited to few genii: "As long as the Enlightenment is not dead - only now it is spreading into the last corner of the earth and penetrates the last social layers - german thinking between 1770 and 1830 remains the most modern mindset." (GOMEZ DAVILA)

That hodgepodge of centuries-old and negation of papal infallibility shows you are not a Catholic.
The Latin Mass is done and if you cannot accept it, you are not a Catholic.

If You had any knowledge of catholicism You knew, that papal infallibility is bound to very few occasions - a normal Motu Proprio is certainly not infallible - and the pope standing in the tradition. Or that we have been exploding from 0 in 1970 wherever we have had structures (so far mostly in WestEurope&USA), due to families with many children, but also NewComers, mostly young, many academical, 55% men; in France more priests have in recent years been consecrated by us than by all NewMass-dioceses together aso.. We have a future, the antiChristian AnthropoTheists, who idolize mankind and are too stupid to take their pseudoChristian masks away, have naturally none (as their only goal was&is to make the churches empty).

[PSOL]

Does the Latin Mass cause Obsessive Obscurantist Syndrome, because it is clearly causing a pretty bad effect on Georg here.

Like, this is a poor indicator, but Nathan is definitely less cringe than all people who want the Latin Mass.

[If my soul was made of stone]

Does the Latin Mass cause Obsessive Obscurantist Syndrome, because it is clearly causing a pretty bad effect on Georg here.

I'd assume that not wanting people to understand the words of the central rite of your faith is correlated with general obscurantism, yes. I don't really have a horse in this race as a non-Catholic, but from my outsider's perspective the Latin Mass in the contemporary era just seems like the clergy masturbating their godliness while the onlookers feel like they can't have any part in it.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Does the Latin Mass cause Obsessive Obscurantist Syndrome, because it is clearly causing a pretty bad effect on Georg here.

I'd assume that not wanting people to understand the words of the central rite of your faith is correlated with general obscurantism, yes. I don't really have a horse in this race as a non-Catholic, but from my outsider's perspective the Latin Mass in the contemporary era just seems like the clergy masturbating their godliness while the onlookers feel like they can't have any part in it.

The onlookers are masturbating their godliness too.

I actually like the 1962 Mass a lot aesthetically and have been to diocesan TLMs several times over the years, which is part of why I support this move; there isn't a hard line between radtrads and normal conservative Catholics in good standing, more of a continuum, and the diocesan TLM scene moved closer and closer to the "hard" end of that continuum even in the five years or so (~2015-2020) in which I was personally familiar with it. At the first Latin Mass I ever went to, an usher went out of his way to reassure me that the far-right image people have of trads was a stereotype and they in fact had much the same spectrum of opinion I could find among orthodox Catholics in general; five years later, that same guy was posting on Facebook about how Steve Bannon will lead the Children of Light on a crusade to #StopTheSteal or whatever.

[afleitch]

The Church has a tendency to fete conservatives to it's own detriment. However it's clear that the Latin Mass as an aesthetic (which I would argue is essentially what it is) is a pipeline towards as Nathan notes, reactionary anti Vatican II (and anti-Church) movements, fash too, but that's probably a secondary problem and an overall insular expression of faith and identity and the Church has identified this.