This post perfectly sums up what I hate about American politics right now

[Xing]

I debated making a post about the conversation I had with my wife about Trump doing better among Latinos, something I didn't see happening to the degree that it did. I knew that at least someone would misconstrue my statements (possibly/probably intentionally) and accuse me of being elitist/condescending/racist/etc. And, well, I wasn't wrong.

Whoever end up not voting for D are

racist ("look down on other Latinos")
sexist
loves Daddy Trump because muh "manly/macho"
"misunderstands" BLM/protest


with other words they are just worse people who don't understand or share the beauty and wisdom of the ideas of Democratic Party.

Even shorter would be: Latin America are not sending their best, they are this and they are that.

My post might not have been perfectly expressed, but I at least tried to be thoughtful, and stressed many times that the points I was making were not universally true. And then comes this response. A short post, intentionally misrepresenting every point I made and making me seem like an elitist asshole who looks down on everyone who doesn't agree with my "beautiful" world view, even though I never said anything like that in my post, nor implied that they are worse people, and even suggested that "people like me" should find a new way of trying to reach these voters, i.e. critiquing my own party/ideology.

"But Xing, it was just a troll post, don't take it seriously!" Yes, it was a low-effort troll post by a low-effort troll. And it's exactly the kind of rebuttals to thoughtful arguments we get in our political discourse. Misrepresentation, short and simplistic responses that can fit on a bumper-sticker (takes less effort to read that than an effort post), and accusation of "elitism" and a "holier-than-thou" attitude coming from someone who probably understands the content matter far less. You could easily say that half of our political discourse is low-effort trolling, and our current President is basically a low-effort troll. I don't tend to make a lot of long posts here (I'll admit it) for this reason: Serious responses are rare, and the low-effort troll responses get more attention.

Where do we even go from here? Our discourse has deteriorated to the point where no one wants to hear other points of view. Instead, they'll simply intentionally misrepresent them and then repeat the shorter, obviously misrepresented version to try and prove how "ridiculous" the argument is. This is not going to go away assuming that Trump loses, and the desire so many have to just piss off/troll those who disagree creates a truly toxic environment.

I'd welcome people to critique my post (respectfully.) It's an educated guess at the Latino swing to Trump, and maybe there are points I didn't consider. But to strawman it as "lolz latin pplz doesnt agree w me, omfg so racist sexisst uninformed!" isn't to engaging or "owning", it's avoiding the conversation and trying to convince others to do the same. And no, I'm not "triggered", because I knew this would happen. I'm just using this as one of many examples which is unfortunately representative of the sorry state of our discourse, and why I'm pessimistic that anything is going to change in the near future.

I don't know how much longer I can keep following politics. This year really broke me, and I'm considering taking a very long break.

[Coolface Sock #42069]

Take the break. You won’t regret it. Life is really too short to worry about stuff like this. We just got through an election, so there won’t be another one for two years. Even if you take a break for a week, you’ll feel better.

But yes, even though Bernie’s followers tend to get the most criticism for the way they act online, there’s plenty of bad behavior in the GOP rank and file as well.

[jamestroll]

I have literally destroyed almost all my kitchen plates.. have a hole in  my wall and created a lot of damage to my apartment that I have to go and fix now. That is how angry I am.

[John Dule]

I have literally destroyed almost all my kitchen plates.. have a hole in  my wall and created a lot of damage to my apartment that I have to go and fix now. That is how angry I am.

That'll show Drumpfh!

[͘]

I have literally destroyed almost all my kitchen plates.. have a hole in  my wall and created a lot of damage to my apartment that I have to go and fix now. That is how angry I am.

What the heck am I reading?

[KoopaDaQuick 🇵🇸]

I have literally destroyed almost all my kitchen plates.. have a hole in  my wall and created a lot of damage to my apartment that I have to go and fix now. That is how angry I am.

ok i was extremely mad and afraid too but what

[Wazza [INACTIVE]]

Because you immediately revert to talking points that boil down to the people who abandoned the Democratic Party being  “racist/sexist” or having some other deep moral flaw without considering any alternative explanation for the swing. Not only is this rather silly as Trump’s “macho” attributes and the supposed relationships between older and newer immigrants are not factors that are unique to this election, it’s also a very common tendency on this forum and amongst American liberals and left-wingers in general. Johnathan Haidt talks about it in his book “The Righteous Mind” (2012):

In a study I did with Jesse Graham and Brian Nosek, we tested how well liberals and conservatives could understand each other. We asked more than two thousand American visitors to fill out the Moral Foundations Qyestionnaire. One-third of the time they were asked to fill it out normally, answering as themselves. One-third of the time they were asked to fill it out as they think a “typical liberal” would respond. One-third of the time they were asked to fill it out as a “typical conservative” would respond. This design allowed us to examine the stereotypes that each side held about the other. More important, it allowed us to assess how accurate they were by comparing people’s expectations about “typical” partisans to the actual responses from partisans on the left and the right)’ Who was best able to pretend to be the other?

The results were clear and consistent. Moderates and conservatives were most accurate in their predictions, whether they were pretending to be liberals or conservatives. Liberals were the least accurate, especially those who described themselves as “very liberal.” The biggest errors in the whole study came when liberals answered the Care and Fairness questions while pretending to be conservatives. When faced with questions such as “One of the worst things a person could do is hurt a defenseless animal” or ”Justice is the most important requirement for a society,” liberals assumed that conservatives would disagree.

So Russian Bear’s prod is quite valid, you show a clear disconnection from people outside of your ideological bubble. I also find it ironic that one of the snarkiest users on this forum is creating a thread to whine about another user being rude to him. Yes, perhaps a break from the forum would be best.

[AncestralDemocrat.]

I have literally destroyed almost all my kitchen plates.. have a hole in  my wall and created a lot of damage to my apartment that I have to go and fix now. That is how angry I am.

haha.. hoping this is a troll attempt.

[Green Line]

You're consistently rude to people who disagree with you.

Russian Bear just summed up your post into a TLDR.  You can dress it up all you want, but at the end you were simply calling into question the moral character of people who have stopped voting for the Democratic Party.  Guess what?  People don't appreciate being called sexist and racist.  Your statements weren't misconstrued, you just didn't like hearing them without the dressed up language that you tried using.  If you have an issue with the political discourse on here perhaps its time to look in the mirror.

[Xing]

Wazza and Greenline are proving my point. Neither of you read my post, or at least you read it looking to make me the enemy and having already concluded that I just must be wrong. I clearly said that I do have some insight into why some Latino voters might have gone with Trump. But I'm not allowed to say anything that might so much as imply that there are some negative reasons why people might support someone like Trump, even if I clearly say that it brings me no joy to say it. I didn't even say that my reasoning applied to every Latino Trump voter, or even every Clinton/Trump voter. Does it sound like I'm criticizing the logic of some of these voters? Well, first of all, that shouldn't be a crime, and second of all, it doesn't even mean I'm saying that they're all bad people. I'm judging their logic/voting patterns, not their person. And it's not like no one criticizes the logic people have for voting Democratic. I could write a long post here criticizing the logic of some white liberals as well (and I have criticized the Democratic Party as well as some progressives here), but that's already been done thousands of times, and I probably wouldn't be saying anything people don't already know.

You both just did exactly what people constantly accuse the left of doing: Not listening to other points of view and just assuming that someone expressing a different opinion has negative intent. And are either of you Latino? I doubt it. Do either of you have strong connections to the Latino community and know numerous Latino Clinton/Trump voters who switched to Trump for reasons other than the ones I mentioned? Great, then let me know what I'm getting wrong without being so quick to call me "snarky" or "rude" (anyone see the irony here?) If you don't, and just want to take a swipe at me because you don't like my point of view, then what are you contributing to the conversation? Either do some research that doesn't involve one study that already confirms your worldview, or realize that the you're the ones who aren't willing to listen. I even said in my first post in this thread that I WELCOME people to critique my post (respectfully) and show me what I'm getting wrong. That's not what either of you did. You attacked me, called my argument "silly" without any evidence or alternative explanations, and posted a study with flawed methodology that in no way directly addresses any of my points even if there's a shred of accuracy in it.

You know, I'm not normally a particularly snarky person. Maybe you don't believe me, fine. But my life experiences, which I don't talk about a great deal here because I don't want to divulge too much of my personal life on an internet forum, have put me in contact with a lot of different points of view. There's a lot more than the oversimplified liberal/conservative dichotomy people talk about. I've talked to people from around the world who have points of view that are extremely uncommon among liberals or conservatives in America. My job puts me in direct contact with people who often have very different experiences from me, and I've had to allow my mindset to evolve on many different things. I probably would've said that I liked the Democratic education policies back when I was 18. Now, I could point to many issues with the push to use standards and nationalize them, among many other things. While I think a good college education and post-graduate degrees that give students real, hands-on experience in a field can be invaluable, I don't think it immediately makes everyone enlightened, nor is it the only path to being an informed, intelligent person. I have plenty of disagreements with people I know from other countries, and sometimes there's tension, but I have acknowledged when people make a point that I didn't consider, and have definitely not always assumed that I'm in the right.

Maybe talking about politics brings out a bit of anger on my part. I'll admit it. It's tiring to have attacks like "extremist, socialist, radical leftist, antifa scum, anti-American" thrown at me by people who make no effort to understand what I actually want, and express opinions such as wanting to kick people like my wife (who is doing everything legally) out of the country, or at least make her process as long, complicated, and expensive as possible, constantly crap on anyone who lives in a city despite the fact that there are many who are really struggling and don't care at all about "wokeness", and vote in a way that really will negatively affect my life, without offering a coherent line of reasoning for doing so... and then I'm expected to be a perfect little angel, smile and say "well, they just have a different opinion", when that's NEVER the response I've heard from conservatives when I express my point of view to them. Not even the most respectful conservatives I know have been that empathetic to me. It gets tiresome to be purely empathetic to people who offer none in return.

Oh, and one more thing. Yes, I have criticized other points of view because that's called "debating" or "having a discussion." Attacking or being rude would be saying something like "anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot." For example, show me one time I've attacked the character of moderates. I've criticized the reasoning behind some common arguments, voting, etc. but I am criticizing actions, not people. I have never said "moderates are idiots, moderates hate America, moderates are horrible people." If I had, then maybe these accusations of me being "the problem" would hold more water.

I'm not a perfect poster, nor do I pretend to be. When I have crossed a line in the past or been wrong about something, I've tried to acknowledge it. If simply expressing my point of view and defending it while also saying that people are welcome to disagree or say what they think I'm missing (it's not like I don't have many reasons for believing what I believe), while criticizing points of view I disagree with makes me snarky, then I don't know a single person on the planet who isn't snarky.

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

Feminicidios are a huge problem in Mexico, for example. Too often, women are kidnapped, raped, and murdered, and no justice is served. While the percentage of Latino men who actually participate in this is of course very small, many refuse to acknowledge that it is an issue, and laugh at women who bring up the issue and say "well, plenty of men are killed too, so what are you complaining about?" Many Latino families are very patriarchal, and there's an expectation that especially older men in families deserve more respect and younger women should have to be quiet and listen to them. To at least some of these Latino men, Trump represents a "strong male authority figure", who doesn't let women have too much control.

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. […] They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people”

Xing, you're one of the best here, but I would honestly ask you to compare the similarities between your statements about Latinos for Trump and Trump's statements about illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America.

Are some of the "rapists" Trump cites "Femimicidos"?  That's one of a number of fair questions one could pose, based on your comments.  

Your comment subtly reflects a resentment toward more assimilated Latinos who are more likely to vote on issues, or who are more likely (and more correctly, IMO) to view America as a land of opportunity and not a racist dystopia.  Why shouldn't someone who has made it in America not view life through a lens where they are making voting choices based on policy that is best for THEIR families?

Don't we WANT people who immigrate here to assimilate into American ways?  Isn't that, in no small part, what a unified country requires; a certain degree of cultural unity and certain shared values?  In America, those shared values ought to be for (A) individual liberties and freedoms, (B) equality of individuals under the law, (C) belief in a republican form of government with democratic features, and (D) the belief that guilt is PERSONAL, and not something assigned solely by association.  Undergirding all of this is the the premise that America is a GOOD Nation, and that all persons that choose to immigrate to America forego all loyalty and allegiance to their country of origin and become Americans, once and for all.  Isn't this what we WANT out of our immigration policy for the sake of national unity?

It's a problem if we don't.  If we don't, we're then saying we want to build a country based on group identity.  That's what today's identity politics is.  Your post essentially chides GOP-supporting Latinos for not going along with the Identity Politics playbook.  People are individuals.  I never considered it a big deal when the Dixie Chicks criticized Bush 43 and they weren't required to refrain from doing so just because their conservative fan base expected them to be loyal to Team W.  Minorities who don't choose to be loyal to Team Democrat ought to be any different.

Xing, you're more thoughtful than the talking head pukes who shamelessly push the "Skinfolk, but not Kinfolk" narratives thrown at us by MSNBC and the like.  The link I chose is one of the worse examples of toxic groupthink where someone is applying group pressure to shame a member of their group who's "outside the box".  And it's a comment far more than just criticizing one for their position on an issue.  Just imagine what a hue and cry there would be if some conservative white Kentucky politician made a comment about Gov. Andy Beshear in the same vein over public policy.  (It would have been considered out of bounds and deservedly so.)  Can you at least imagine that minorities who have chosen to vote for Trump have done so out of the best of motivations (what's good for THEIR family, what they believe is best for their state and nation as a whole)?  Are you saying that only those Latinos and blacks who vote for Biden are properly civic-minded?  I'm really asking you to think about the box you've put yourself in here.  I think you're thoughtful enough to find a way to step out of that without donning a MAGA hat.

[͘]

-Boop-

Sometimes it is not the best idea to change people's minds. Some people can't be convinced even if all the contradictory data is given. Frankly, the idea of debating people is almost entirely pointless unless your audience is willing to change their mind.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

-Boop-

Sometimes it is not the best idea to change people's minds. Some people can't be convinced even if all the contradictory data is given. Frankly, the idea of debating people is almost entirely pointless unless your audience is willing to change their mind.

That's why triggering the libs/cons has more value to it. At least you can have more fun that way.

[Xing]

-snip-

Thank you, Fuzzy Bear, for actually posting a thoughtful response that addresses my post. You're a better poster than a lot of people here give you credit for, and even though I strongly disagree with a lot of your views on immigration, I don't think you post in bad faith or are coming from a bad place.

Feminicidios are a major problem in Mexico, but as I said, the overwhelming majority don't actually participate in it. As for how immigrants from Mexico feel about them, I think we'd need a lot of data to figure that out, and while I suspect the the majority would acknowledge that it is a major problem, I don't think there'd be universal agreement on how to address it, nor would attitudes toward feminism be universal. The problem with Trump's comment isn't that it literally applies to no one, it's that there are many immigrants who are good people and want to contribute to this country, and his comment is an unfair characterization and doesn't do justice to Latinos in this country who do often work very difficult jobs and are critical to the success of this country. Had he said "the majority are good people, but we should make sure that we have an immigration system that does not allow anyone who would harm Americans into this country", many of the left probably still would have criticized it, some harshly but it would've been a much more nuanced statement which did not brush aside the many good immigrants there are here.

I can understand your point. I wasn't trying to imply that it's bad if Latinos want to assimilate and be considered Americans. I just think it's unfortunate that some want to completely dissociate with other Latinos in order to do so. This is something that really happens, and while I'm not going to call anyone who does that a bad person, I don't think it should be necessary to distance yourself from certain people in order to be considered "American." As for what we should "want", I think it depends on what you mean by assimilation. While some things, like equality for all individuals, shouldn't be subject to change, I think that having some cultural diversity in this country is part of who we are, and we should recognize that the coexistence of other traditions doesn't have to be the extinction of others. There is the assumption that immigrants will assimilate to an extent. It's something that the teachers at my school and I discuss all the time; the need to be real with students about life in America and some of the differences they'll have to adjust to here, but I don't think it should get to the point where part of the immigration process involves making sure they have the "right" views on certain issues. It's all too easy to see how an administration could abuse that to their benefit.

I'll acknowledge that many on the left aren't great at respecting other points of view. Maybe at times I've been one of those people, though I do try to be better. I have spoken to some like-minded people in my circle, and told them that not everyone who voted for Trump is racist, and that they need to stop pushing away people who could be allies, or shouting down people like me who agree with them 95% of the time, but might have some slight differences of opinion which rub them the wrong way. It's a real issue on the left, and while it's not only the left, I'll own that my side needs to do a better job here. As I mentioned in my post, it does seem like the protests over the summer pushed some minorities away. That's what makes the strawmanning of my post even worse, since this is a point in which I wasn't as critical, since I understood completely why they were off-put by this. I won't lie, I think that those who switched to Trump made a mistake. It shouldn't a secret or a crime for me to think that, but I'm not going to say that they're all horrible people.