Netherlands full face ban takes effect tomorow

[lfromnj]

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/07/burqa-ban-introduced-on-august-1-to-be-evaluated-in-three-years/

[DavidB.]

Several organizations already announced they will not enforce the ban, but today there has been quite a bit of attention for the fact that it is legal for citizens to arrest women wearing full face veils, provided that they immediately call the police and just prevent the 'offender' from getting away before the police arrive. Geert Wilders has already called upon the public to do so.

Today's Algemeen Dagblad newspaper had a rather elaborate explanation on what is and isn't allowed:
https://twitter.com/Martijn5155/status/1156506422781386752

[lfromnj]

Several organizations already announced they will not enforce the ban, but today there has been quite a bit of attention for the fact that it is legal for citizens to arrest women wearing full face veils, provided that they immediately call the police and just prevent the 'offender' from getting away before the police arrive. Geert Wilders has already called upon the public to do so.

Today's Algemeen Dagblad newspaper had a rather elaborate explanation on what is and isn't allowed:
https://twitter.com/Martijn5155/status/1156506422781386752

Well Ik atleast one former atlas dutch user who will "follow" the law

[Tender Branson]

We have the same law now for 2 years and the outcome is mixed:

On the one hand, we have a ton of tourists from the Gulf (Arab) region and many of them are extremely conservative, wearing full-face niqabs or medical masks in combination with hijabs.

The fine is 150€ per violation if Arab women are caught by local police wearing a full-face-veil.

That's mostly no problem for these wealthy tourists, they pay the fine, wait until the police is gone and then put the full-face-veil back up.

In effect it just means that these people do not care at all what the law is and simply sh*t on the heads of police and their work.

There's also a good side: with the huge amount of fines here in Zell am See and Vienna (where most Arabs are vacationing), the police budget is getting a nice revenue.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/austrian-resort-of-zell-am-see-turns-blind-eye-to-gulf-tourists-flouting-burka-ban-tdfh2k2jv

[dead0man]

I don't really care for these one way or the other (there are good arguments on both sides), the letting citizens "arrest" people for this seems like a really bad idea to me.

[Epaminondas]

The arrest by fellow citizens is creepy. Does it cover immobilising? Force unveiling? Injuring in case of escape?
It could lead to unfortunate situations.

There's also a good side: with the huge amount of fines here in Zell am See and Vienna (where most Arabs are vacationing), the police budget is getting a nice revenue.

Is it really that much? Another article estimates about 100 last July: https://diepresse.com/home/panorama/oesterreich/5474909/Zell-am-See_Hunderte-Strafen-fuer-Vollverschleierte

So that would be 3*100*150 = €45k
Perhaps the operating costs of a police station for one week.

[America Needs R'hllor]

I don't really care for these one way or the other (there are good arguments on both sides), the letting citizens "arrest" people for this seems like a really bad idea to me.

Agreed with both points, it's... very disturbing. If someone tries to "arrest" (attack) a woman without being a policeperson, they have every right for self-defence, and if the state takes that from them it's very problematic.

Several organizations already announced they will not enforce the ban, but today there has been quite a bit of attention for the fact that it is legal for citizens to arrest women wearing full face veils, provided that they immediately call the police and just prevent the 'offender' from getting away before the police arrive. Geert Wilders has already called upon the public to do so.

Today's Algemeen Dagblad newspaper had a rather elaborate explanation on what is and isn't allowed:
https://twitter.com/Martijn5155/status/1156506422781386752

Well Ik atleast one former atlas dutch user who will "follow" the law

I don't really care if it's a joke- it's disgusting, deranged and evil.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

Lean ff

[DavidB.]

Can't make this stuff up
https://twitter.com/pvda_amsterdam/status/1157971798266384386?s=19

[Omega21]

Can't make this stuff up
https://twitter.com/pvda_amsterdam/status/1157971798266384386?s=19

This made my day lol.

Not surprising though, these people would sympathise with anyone they deem "oppressed" in their little heads.

Maybe we could organize free trips for them to SA, I feel like they would like it so much they wouldn't even come back.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Thing is that sort of display winds up traditional salafis and islamists more than anything so I don't see what the harm is.  The conservatives in islam fear the swedification of islam even more than the European nationalists fear the islamification of Sweden.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I find these type of bans to be reprehensible. If we can curtail how they practice their religious freedom then imagine what they can/will do in a future that looks like something out of ”Camp of the Saints.” If you don’t want people covering themselves completely like this, then don’t let ‘em in to begin with. Control the borders, not their daily lives.

[lfromnj]

I find these type of bans to be reprehensible. If we can curtail how they practice their religious freedom then imagine what they can/will do in a future that looks like something out of ”Camp of the Saints.” If you don’t want people covering themselves completely like this, then don’t let ‘em in to begin with. Control the borders, not their daily lives.

Another Issue where America is significantly more "to the left" (actually: libertarian) than Europe. You are an american right-winger and oppose these bans, like most Americans and Republicans. The US is (27%-59%) against a Niqab ban. I am a German left-winger and i support these bans like a vast majority here in Germany (62%-27) and German leftists (62-29% for SPD voters, 59-29 for Linke Voters).

Yeah something like 74% of the Netherlands supports the ban from what I found yet here in the US we are pretty against it.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I find these type of bans to be reprehensible. If we can curtail how they practice their religious freedom then imagine what they can/will do in a future that looks like something out of ”Camp of the Saints.” If you don’t want people covering themselves completely like this, then don’t let ‘em in to begin with. Control the borders, not their daily lives.

Another Issue where America is significantly more "to the left" (actually: libertarian) than Europe. You are an american right-winger and oppose these bans, like most Americans and Republicans. The US is (27%-59%) against a Niqab ban. I am a German left-winger and i support these bans like a vast majority here in Germany (62%-27) and German leftists (62-29% for SPD voters, 59-29 for Linke Voters).

Why exactly do you oppose the ban? I’m sincerely curious, not trying to argue. Is it a feminist position in Europe? Because here, our leading feminists rallied around the likes of Linda Sarsour.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Can't make this stuff up
https://twitter.com/pvda_amsterdam/status/1157971798266384386?s=19

LOL

[OSR stands with Israel]

  letting citizens "arrest" people for this seems like a really bad idea to me.

[DavidB.]

I find these type of bans to be reprehensible. If we can curtail how they practice their religious freedom then imagine what they can/will do in a future that looks like something out of ”Camp of the Saints.”

We shouldn't allow it to reach that point (everything will be lost in that case anyway), and this type of clothing simply doesn't belong here. This is the homeland of the Dutch. We decide on the norms here. And this doesn't belong here. They can take it or leave it.

It's not actually a robust ban like in Denmark, Belgium and Austria, but a typically watered-down Dutch version of it: it's only illegal to wear it in public buildings, hospitals, schools and on public transportation. Which are almost all run by spineless people who have already decided not to uphold it even if it is literally the law, because that's just how things work here. In short: for now, the ban will be a paper tiger - but may be a good first step towards something better, when we will finally be governed by people who are willing to uphold the law and say loudly and clearly that this country is ours.

[Omega21]

I find these type of bans to be reprehensible. If we can curtail how they practice their religious freedom then imagine what they can/will do in a future that looks like something out of ”Camp of the Saints.” If you don’t want people covering themselves completely like this, then don’t let ‘em in to begin with. Control the borders, not their daily lives.

Another Issue where America is significantly more "to the left" (actually: libertarian) than Europe. You are an american right-winger and oppose these bans, like most Americans and Republicans. The US is (27%-59%) against a Niqab ban. I am a German left-winger and i support these bans like a vast majority here in Germany (62%-27) and German leftists (62-29% for SPD voters, 59-29 for Linke Voters).

Why exactly do you oppose support the ban? I’m sincerely curious, not trying to argue. Is it a feminist position in Europe? Because here, our leading feminists rallied around the likes of Linda Sarsour.

For me it is the issue of assimilation. I view the Niqab as contrary to German Culture and European Values and i think that immigrants must be assimilated into our culture. I am not for the "melting pot" idea of the U.S.. For most in Europe however i think it is the idea of, as you said, feminism, and that Women in Niqabs are "forced" by their Husbands. I dont totally buy into that though. For some of them it definitively is, but i am quite sure many do it out of voluntarily.

For this reason it should be said that i oppose extending the Ban to Arab tourists. The Ban is not a priority at all for me however. I think i can recall two instances of seeing the Niqab in Germany, and one was in Frankfurt Airport in the queue for a flight to Dubai. The amount of Muslim women that wear it here is certainly >1%.

It should be said though, "voluntary" just means being brainwashed into it while you were a child.

No sane human would seek to put additional layers of clothing on their heads which provide no comfort/benefit during heat waves.

[lfromnj]

I find these type of bans to be reprehensible. If we can curtail how they practice their religious freedom then imagine what they can/will do in a future that looks like something out of ”Camp of the Saints.” If you don’t want people covering themselves completely like this, then don’t let ‘em in to begin with. Control the borders, not their daily lives.

Another Issue where America is significantly more "to the left" (actually: libertarian) than Europe. You are an american right-winger and oppose these bans, like most Americans and Republicans. The US is (27%-59%) against a Niqab ban. I am a German left-winger and i support these bans like a vast majority here in Germany (62%-27) and German leftists (62-29% for SPD voters, 59-29 for Linke Voters).

Why exactly do you oppose support the ban? I’m sincerely curious, not trying to argue. Is it a feminist position in Europe? Because here, our leading feminists rallied around the likes of Linda Sarsour.

For me it is the issue of assimilation. I view the Niqab as contrary to German Culture and European Values and i think that immigrants must be assimilated into our culture. I am not for the "melting pot" idea of the U.S.. For most in Europe however i think it is the idea of, as you said, feminism, and that Women in Niqabs are "forced" by their Husbands. I dont totally buy into that though. For some of them it definitively is, but i am quite sure many do it out of voluntarily.

For this reason it should be said that i oppose extending the Ban to Arab tourists. The Ban is not a priority at all for me however. I think i can recall two instances of seeing the Niqab in Germany, and one was in Frankfurt Airport in the queue for a flight to Dubai. The amount of Muslim women that wear it here is certainly >1%.

It should be said though, "voluntary" just means being brainwashed into it while you were a child.

No sane human would seek to put additional layers of clothing on their heads which provide no comfort/benefit during heat waves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacinda_Ardern

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I find these type of bans to be reprehensible. If we can curtail how they practice their religious freedom then imagine what they can/will do in a future that looks like something out of ”Camp of the Saints.” If you don’t want people covering themselves completely like this, then don’t let ‘em in to begin with. Control the borders, not their daily lives.

Another Issue where America is significantly more "to the left" (actually: libertarian) than Europe. You are an american right-winger and oppose these bans, like most Americans and Republicans. The US is (27%-59%) against a Niqab ban. I am a German left-winger and i support these bans like a vast majority here in Germany (62%-27) and German leftists (62-29% for SPD voters, 59-29 for Linke Voters).

Why exactly do you oppose support the ban? I’m sincerely curious, not trying to argue. Is it a feminist position in Europe? Because here, our leading feminists rallied around the likes of Linda Sarsour.

For me it is the issue of assimilation. I view the Niqab as contrary to German Culture and European Values and i think that immigrants must be assimilated into our culture. I am not for the "melting pot" idea of the U.S.. For most in Europe however i think it is the idea of, as you said, feminism, and that Women in Niqabs are "forced" by their Husbands. I dont totally buy into that though. For some of them it definitively is, but i am quite sure many do it out of voluntarily.

For this reason it should be said that i oppose extending the Ban to Arab tourists. The Ban is not a priority at all for me however. I think i can recall two instances of seeing the Niqab in Germany, and one was in Frankfurt Airport in the queue for a flight to Dubai. The amount of Muslim women that wear it here is certainly >1%.

It should be said though, "voluntary" just means being brainwashed into it while you were a child.

No sane human would seek to put additional layers of clothing on their heads which provide no comfort/benefit during heat waves.

Trouble is that's not really the case. Many niqabis take up the practice in adulthood and often against the objections of their families because the practice is as alien, anti-social and baffling to most Muslims as it is to non-Muslims. But even if women are "brainwashed" I don't see how this helps. The feminist argument for the niqab ban works under the assumption that its proponents know more about the mindset of the niqabis affected than the women themselves. It's as gross to me as the idea that all housewives or exotic dancers happy with their lot are brainless puppets of patriarchy that are letting women down. It's a general obsession with clothing that means the genuine issues that face Muslim women (e.g. dinestic violence and lack of education) go unexplored.

The better argument comes from a need for public security (e.g. CCTV becomes useless when you can't see people's faces), but even then it's iffy, because individual rights should come first in most cases.

I think the niqab on balance is similar to male circumcision of infants: morally dubious and I would prefer it didn't exist, but in practice a ban would create way more problems than it would be worth.