Methodist Church Faces Possible Chasm Over Gay Rights

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

If progressive people of faith want to look for a reasonable church the Unitarians are always waiting for you.


Much more convincible than joining a crumbling old forces that don't give a damn about LGBTQ or women.

The UMC has ordained women for over 60 years.

Moreover, there are plenty of progressives who have broadly orthodox, confessional Christian beliefs, which the UUA pointedly does not have and in many places does not really accommodate people who do have.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

If progressive people of faith want to look for a reasonable church the Unitarians are always waiting for you.


Much more convincible than joining a crumbling old forces that don't give a damn about LGBTQ or women.

Unitarians are just atheists who want a Sunday social club.

Reject them too and go ELCA, PCUSA, UCC,  Episcopalian or my preference: emergent church.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If progressive people of faith want to look for a reasonable church the Unitarians are always waiting for you.


Much more convincible than joining a crumbling old forces that don't give a damn about LGBTQ or women.

Unitarians are just atheists who want a Sunday social club.

I wouldn't quite go that far, but I will agree that if your focus is primarily upon Christianity or any other single religious tradition, UU will probably end up being a stopover unless you don't have a church of compatible beliefs in your area.

[James Monroe]

If progressive people of faith want to look for a reasonable church the Unitarians are always waiting for you.


Much more convincible than joining a crumbling old forces that don't give a damn about LGBTQ or women.

Unitarians are just atheists who want a Sunday social club.

Reject them too and go ELCA, PCUSA, UCC,  Episcopalian or my preference: emergent church.

I go occasional to the local First Church and beliefs vary from people to people, including deists like myself. Those Mainline Protestant Churches are just becoming too obsolete to functioned as strong beholders of liberal thought. 

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I wish they hadn't approved any of these plans.  The UMC is closely divided on this issue and needs more dialogue on a global level, maybe something more than just getting together for heated debates every few years.

[RI]

Well, Bye Felicia!

And these idiots Neanderthals don’t understand why the Christian church is dying among young people like me.

If that were the only reason, the Episcopalians would be doing fine amongst young people. That's not happening. And I doubt it would be happening with the Methodists if 27 votes flipped here.

There are churches surging amongst youngs. I go to one (which is accepting of LGBT people.) But it takes more than just that, though it's a needed part. These churches are pretty stuck in their ways in other things than LGBT acceptance, and that has to change too.

I mean this isn’t really up for debate, it’s a fact.

https://www.newsweek.com/2018/12/21/evangelicals-republicans-trump-millenials-1255745.html

That article is not really related to my point.

Why are the Episcopalians not surging amongst Millennials?

Do you lack all nuance? Why would you assume because of my statement I believe LGBT issues are the only reason for the decline of the church among young people? It’s a contributory factor, but the disease goes much deeper.

All the article states is that Millennials are turned off to conservative evangelicals and are less likely to be in that category. Duh. You didn't need to explain that to me. But that's only one segment of Christianity. Now Millennials are also less likely to be Catholic, the drop off there is no doubt even worse, and less likely to belong to very traditionalist mainline churches too. But not all churches are suffering this problem. I posted the StarTrib article earlier and that image from my church showing that.

Ehh, I go to a Southern Baptist church that is much more conservative than either branch of the Methodists, and there seems to always be a pretty young crowd.  There are certainly some older people too, but it seems like a pretty standard mix of ages.  A lot of families too.

Yes, the average Baptist and non-denominational evangelical (and Mormon) is quite a bit younger than the average Mainliner or Catholic (Novus Ordo anyway). I actually have a bunch of data on this type of thing. There are some young Mainliners, and they tend to be college-aged (or shortly thereafter) women. However, that's only among the religious population, and younger individuals are far less likely to be religious in general.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Christians shouldn't change their beliefs simply to be popular with the secular world.  Jesus said we wouldn't be popular.

I agree, they shouldn't. They should change their beliefs because in this case it's the right thing to do.

Scripture says it's not the right thing to do.

Not everyone believes that Scripture is the Infallible Word of God, but to say that Scripture would condone this proposal requires theological gyrations that boggle the mind.

[PSOL]

Christians shouldn't change their beliefs simply to be popular with the secular world.  Jesus said we wouldn't be popular.

I agree, they shouldn't. They should change their beliefs because in this case it's the right thing to do.

Scripture says it's not the right thing to do.

Not everyone believes that Scripture is the Infallible Word of God, but to say that Scripture would condone this proposal requires theological gyrations that boggle the mind.

Thank you Fuzzy for reaffirming Christianity’s rigidness and inapplicability to survive in the modern Developed, post-industrial world. All of these fake Christians need to put down scripture and stray away from contradictory falsehoods.

[Badger]

Christians shouldn't change their beliefs simply to be popular with the secular world.  Jesus said we wouldn't be popular.

I agree, they shouldn't. They should change their beliefs because in this case it's the right thing to do.

Scripture says it's not the right thing to do.

Not everyone believes that Scripture is the Infallible Word of God, but to say that Scripture would condone this proposal requires theological gyrations that boggle the mind.

Just like scripture says that women can't service clergy, right?

[P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong]

Christians shouldn't change their beliefs simply to be popular with the secular world.  Jesus said we wouldn't be popular.

I agree, they shouldn't. They should change their beliefs because in this case it's the right thing to do.

Scripture says it's not the right thing to do.

Not everyone believes that Scripture is the Infallible Word of God, but to say that Scripture would condone this proposal requires theological gyrations that boggle the mind.

Just like scripture says that women can't service clergy, right?

I guess we all forgot about that verse in Romans where Rome had a female deacon called Phoebe

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Christians shouldn't change their beliefs simply to be popular with the secular world.  Jesus said we wouldn't be popular.

I agree, they shouldn't. They should change their beliefs because in this case it's the right thing to do.

Scripture says it's not the right thing to do.

Not everyone believes that Scripture is the Infallible Word of God, but to say that Scripture would condone this proposal requires theological gyrations that boggle the mind.

Just like scripture says that women can't service clergy, right?

As long as they are married and monogamous, I think it's okay.

[Badger]

Christians shouldn't change their beliefs simply to be popular with the secular world.  Jesus said we wouldn't be popular.

I agree, they shouldn't. They should change their beliefs because in this case it's the right thing to do.

Scripture says it's not the right thing to do.

Not everyone believes that Scripture is the Infallible Word of God, but to say that Scripture would condone this proposal requires theological gyrations that boggle the mind.

Just like scripture says that women can't service clergy, right?

As long as they are married and monogamous, I think it's okay.

And Catholics of course we disagree. At least the church hierarchy. That's the main problem with declaring the infallibility of scripture. So much of it is subject to the ultimate standard of "I think it's okay".

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

2. One thing BRTD isn't mentioning is the common-to-the-point-of-in-joke phenomenon of previously staid and traditionally-minded Catholic or mainline Protestant churches attempting to go "emergent" and just coming across as phony and losing even more young people than they were losing already. Again, my guess is that fundamentally this is a sincerity thing. Young people can smell "how do you do, fellow kids?"-ism a mile off.

The key is to be "organically" cool and not try to just imitate it.

Most of the people who play in my church's band are actual musicians who play in bands and shows outside of church and are actually pretty well regarded, and our student coordinator is married to a guy who used to work at this place when it was around. It's not like Bushie-style Christianity's outreach attempts at all.

BTW, are you aware that this meme is based on a church song? (Just replace "Beto" with "Jesus" for the original.) And the writer and initial performer of the song was in f[inks]ing THRICE?

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Christians shouldn't change their beliefs simply to be popular with the secular world.  Jesus said we wouldn't be popular.

I agree, they shouldn't. They should change their beliefs because in this case it's the right thing to do.

Scripture says it's not the right thing to do.

Not everyone believes that Scripture is the Infallible Word of God, but to say that Scripture would condone this proposal requires theological gyrations that boggle the mind.

Thank you Fuzzy for reaffirming Christianity’s rigidness and inapplicability to survive in the modern Developed, post-industrial world. All of these fake Christians need to put down scripture and stray away from contradictory falsehoods.

Christianity is supposed to have a counter-cultural message.  Christianity is incompatible with 21st century values, but it was also incompatible with 1st century values.  Yet, the early Christians somehow managed to win converts.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

BRTD, if you were to describe what your church is doing right, without reference to "scene" subcultural hobbyhorses, how would you describe it? I'm genuinely interested.

The things people mock about it here are examples. It doesn't seem like a normal ritual driven church that bores people.

BRTD, do you really believe it's the "smells and bells" aspect of traditional worship that's driving millennials away the most?  The Church of England basically adopted the complete opposite of what emergent churches are doing and has seen youth attendance grow despite the UK being more secular than the US.

Perhaps the difference is cultural, or better yet, as Nathan suggested, your church is more sincere in its beliefs than other contemporary mainline churches.  I've come to appreciate and prefer the traditional Eucharist far above low-church style worship over the years, and as a UCC-Episcopal convert I haven't seen much difference in the age discrepancies between both churches.  In my experience, the main factor is whether a reasonably-sized college is nearby.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

BRTD, if you were to describe what your church is doing right, without reference to "scene" subcultural hobbyhorses, how would you describe it? I'm genuinely interested.

The things people mock about it here are examples. It doesn't seem like a normal ritual driven church that bores people.

BRTD, do you really believe it's the "smells and bells" aspect of traditional worship that's driving millennials away the most?  The Church of England basically adopted the complete opposite of what emergent churches are doing and has seen youth attendance grow despite the UK being more secular than the US.

Perhaps the difference is cultural, or better yet, as Nathan suggested, your church is more sincere in its beliefs than other contemporary mainline churches.  I've come to appreciate and prefer the traditional Eucharist far above low-church style worship over the years, and as a UCC-Episcopal convert I haven't seen much difference in the age discrepancies between both churches.  In my experience, the main factor is whether a reasonably-sized college is nearby.

There's been a strain in the Emergent Church movement from the beginning that aims to incorporate very old liturgical traditions alongside new forms ( "ancient future" ).   I'm not sure exactly how common this is in practice though.   

Taize worship is something I find very meaningful and think a lot of others might as well. It comes out of a modern French religious community and is centered on prayer and meditative songs.    But different people, or even the same people in different moods, respond to different forms of worship. Variety is good.

[TarHeelDem]

UMC minister's kid here and while I've been agnostic for many years now I'm still so deeply upset by this. Even after becoming agnostic I still appreciated the values of social justice and independent thought that the UMC instilled in me during childhood. I expected so much better from the vote yesterday. Shame on the hypocrites who supported the Traditional Plan while claiming to share Christ's unconditional love for all people. I hope the Judicial Council overturns this decision and that peaceful protest mounts, but barring significant change LGBTQ United Methodists and their allies should form a new church that actually honors the Gospel.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I miss my naive teenage years (late 70s & early 80s) back when the difference between the denominations seemed to me to mostly about the style of worship than its substance. Of course I know now that I was mistaken about that then, but it was a happy time nonetheless.

[afleitch]

This effectively guarantees that there will be a split and that’s fine by me. As a former Methodist, I think a split the only way to satisfy everyone if they can’t accept a church-by-church policy. On a personal note, I’d have be willing to come home if the one church plan had passed.

I feel for you. My old Church will never have this discussion let alone a split. While I don't have the need to, I know my friends and family do.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

UMC minister's kid here and while I've been agnostic for many years now I'm still so deeply upset by this. Even after becoming agnostic I still appreciated the values of social justice and independent thought that the UMC instilled in me during childhood. I expected so much better from the vote yesterday. Shame on the hypocrites who supported the Traditional Plan while claiming to share Christ's unconditional love for all people. I hope the Judicial Council overturns this decision and that peaceful protest mounts, but barring significant change LGBTQ United Methodists and their allies should form a new church that actually honors the Gospel.

So no one was honoring the Gospel until the late 20th century?

[Kingpoleon]

If progressive people of faith want to look for a reasonable church the Unitarians are always waiting for you.


Much more convincible than joining a crumbling old forces that don't give a damn about LGBTQ or women.

The UMC has ordained women for over 60 years.

*Since its formation

Even Wesley, founder of our faith, ordained women.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Also, I follow these type of votes fairly closely and I think UMC will eventually change their view. These types of votes are momentum based.

Reform and Conservative Judaism have had votes like these in the past and they kept popping up until the other side one because the Pro-LGBT Marriage side used momentum-based framing to keep their supporters motivated.

The problem with this is that the drumbeat for schism which is being beaten out by the liberals in this thread is, within the UMC itself, being beaten out by the conservatives (using an "own expel the libs" framing rather than a "start our own" framing, of course). They're going out of their way not to leave any room to keep discussing this or let it come up again.