Proof that the Libertarian Party is nuts

[A18]

http://www.lp.org/issues/platform_all.shtml#taxation

No tax can ever be fair, simple or neutral to the free market.

Specifically, we: a.) support the right of any individual to challenge the payment of taxes on moral, religious, legal or constitutional grounds; b.) oppose all personal and corporate income taxation, including capital gains taxes; c.) support the repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment, and oppose any increase in existing tax rates and the imposition of any new taxes; d.) support the repeal of all taxation; and e.) support a declaration of unconditional amnesty for all those individuals who have been convicted of, or who now stand accused of, tax resistance. We oppose as involuntary servitude any legal requirements forcing employers or business owners to serve as tax collectors for federal, state, or local tax agencies. We oppose any and all increases in the rate of taxation or categories of taxpayers, including the elimination of deductions, exemptions or credits in the spurious name of "fairness," "simplicity," or alleged "neutrality to the free market."

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Now, would some Libertarian on this board like to explain to me how this is not total and complete hackery?

[John Dibble]

Hey, I'm no fan of that platform plank either - we need to get some sensible Libertarians in charge of the party.

[Erc]

Well, the first statement is true.

Assuming income inequity, no tax can ever be fair and non-distortional*.


But yeah, it's statements like these that get the Libertarians condemned as nutjobs.


EDIT: *Although some taxes can be distortional in a good way.

[Alcon]

Yet another reminder of why I'm not a Libertarian and why they will continue to fail to achieve 1% of the vote.

[John Dibble]

Yet another reminder of why I'm not a Libertarian and why they will continue to fail to achieve 1% of the vote.

You know, I bet if we changed this one plank to something more sensible, like simply supporting lower taxes where possible, and beefed up our foreign policy, we'd be a hell of a lot better off.

[Alcon]

Yet another reminder of why I'm not a Libertarian and why they will continue to fail to achieve 1% of the vote.

You know, I bet if we changed this one plank to something more sensible, like simply supporting lower taxes where possible, and beefed up our foreign policy, we'd be a hell of a lot better off.

But I so much enjoy the Washington Libertarian Party's convention on Public Access in a poorly-miced setting with people calmly insulting eachother about how crappily the party is doing!

[MaC]

http://www.lp.org/issues/platform_all.shtml#taxation

No tax can ever be fair, simple or neutral to the free market.

Specifically, we: a.) support the right of any individual to challenge the payment of taxes on moral, religious, legal or constitutional grounds; b.) oppose all personal and corporate income taxation, including capital gains taxes; c.) support the repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment, and oppose any increase in existing tax rates and the imposition of any new taxes; d.) support the repeal of all taxation; and e.) support a declaration of unconditional amnesty for all those individuals who have been convicted of, or who now stand accused of, tax resistance. We oppose as involuntary servitude any legal requirements forcing employers or business owners to serve as tax collectors for federal, state, or local tax agencies. We oppose any and all increases in the rate of taxation or categories of taxpayers, including the elimination of deductions, exemptions or credits in the spurious name of "fairness," "simplicity," or alleged "neutrality to the free market."

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Now, would some Libertarian on this board like to explain to me how this is not total and complete hackery?

Why is this nuts?  Y'know I could come up with at least seven "nuts" platforms of your party

[Richard]

http://www.lp.org/issues/platform_all.shtml#taxation

No tax can ever be fair, simple or neutral to the free market.

Specifically, we: a.) support the right of any individual to challenge the payment of taxes on moral, religious, legal or constitutional grounds; b.) oppose all personal and corporate income taxation, including capital gains taxes; c.) support the repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment, and oppose any increase in existing tax rates and the imposition of any new taxes; d.) support the repeal of all taxation; and e.) support a declaration of unconditional amnesty for all those individuals who have been convicted of, or who now stand accused of, tax resistance. We oppose as involuntary servitude any legal requirements forcing employers or business owners to serve as tax collectors for federal, state, or local tax agencies. We oppose any and all increases in the rate of taxation or categories of taxpayers, including the elimination of deductions, exemptions or credits in the spurious name of "fairness," "simplicity," or alleged "neutrality to the free market."

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Now, would some Libertarian on this board like to explain to me how this is not total and complete hackery?

Why is this nuts?  Y'know I could come up with at least seven "nuts" platforms of your party

I have to ask the same question.  Why is this nuts?

[Jake]

Yet another reminder of why I'm not a Libertarian and why they will continue to fail to achieve 1% of the vote.

You know, I bet if we changed this one plank to something more sensible, like simply supporting lower taxes where possible, and beefed up our foreign policy, we'd be a hell of a lot better off.

You may crack 5% in every state and 10% in NH.

[John Dibble]

http://www.lp.org/issues/platform_all.shtml#taxation

No tax can ever be fair, simple or neutral to the free market.

Specifically, we: a.) support the right of any individual to challenge the payment of taxes on moral, religious, legal or constitutional grounds; b.) oppose all personal and corporate income taxation, including capital gains taxes; c.) support the repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment, and oppose any increase in existing tax rates and the imposition of any new taxes; d.) support the repeal of all taxation; and e.) support a declaration of unconditional amnesty for all those individuals who have been convicted of, or who now stand accused of, tax resistance. We oppose as involuntary servitude any legal requirements forcing employers or business owners to serve as tax collectors for federal, state, or local tax agencies. We oppose any and all increases in the rate of taxation or categories of taxpayers, including the elimination of deductions, exemptions or credits in the spurious name of "fairness," "simplicity," or alleged "neutrality to the free market."

---

Now, would some Libertarian on this board like to explain to me how this is not total and complete hackery?

Why is this nuts?  Y'know I could come up with at least seven "nuts" platforms of your party

I have to ask the same question.  Why is this nuts?

Mainly the 'elimination of all taxation' thing - unfortunately there will always be taxes of some sort to at least fund the military. It's a nice idea, but it won't work in reality. Of course, I don't know if user fees were meant to be included in this, and user fees can fund a number of things, though I don't know how you'd fund an army with user fees and I don't think it's a good idea to have the police run by it either.

[John Dibble]

Yet another reminder of why I'm not a Libertarian and why they will continue to fail to achieve 1% of the vote.

You know, I bet if we changed this one plank to something more sensible, like simply supporting lower taxes where possible, and beefed up our foreign policy, we'd be a hell of a lot better off.

You may crack 5% in every state and 10% in NH.

Cracking that much on a regular basis would give the party some serious weight to throw around.

[David S]

http://www.lp.org/issues/platform_all.shtml#taxation

OK lets take them one at a time.

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You should know from your own posts on this forum that no tax plan is considered fair by everyone. Any plan you can come up with will be vociferously attacked by one group or another as being unfair.

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If your tax dollars are used to fund abortions, which you are religously opposed to, would you not have the right to object?

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For most of our history America had no such taxes.

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I support that and so do many others, you too if I remember right.

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OK that one is indefensible. I've complained about it to the LP twice. But is it any worse than the unwritten policies of the Democrats; We are willing to tax up to 90% of your income.
Or the Republicans; We will spend you so far into debt that you will never get out.

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The IRS has been hauled before congress at least twice in recent years for abusing taxpayers. In one case a man was driven to suicide because the IRS seized his bank accounts and would not listen to his replys to their claims. He was left penniless and with no way to plead his case.  His wife used the life insurance money to hire a lawyer. The lawyer proved he was right all along. The IRS conceded that, but did not even appologize.

Now I don't support anyone deliberately cheating on their taxes, but I do believe the IRS has been very heavy handed in dealing with taxpayers. I don't have a problem with pardoning those who were overly punished.

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Well isn't it?

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Seems to me that you also oppose those things.

[A18]

David S,

It's the items in bold I was calling nuts. Although, as I have pointed out, repealing the 16th amendment will NOT abolish the income tax. Only direct income taxes. Thus, wasting time repealing it could definitely be considered nuts. I'm for getting rid of it, but I would never spend the political capital on such a proposal that would be necessary to pass it. I support the "Liberty Amendment," which explictly bans taxes on personal incomes.

The LP didn't say that no tax could be considered fair by everyone. They said no tax could ever be fair.

On point A, the Lib Platform is basically saying they support making up ridiculous reasons for not paying taxes. Such as, it goes against my religion. Well, tell me, if we allow that today, how many people will NOT be part of that religion tomorrow?

Points B and C I already addressed. Repealing them would be ideal, at which point they should be replaced with a sales tax, which isn't a privacy violation like the income tax undoubtedly is. However, that would be double taxation on everyone who already paid federal income tax on all their savings. I can't ask them to carry the weight of the federal government again, and so I've been drifting away from that idea, instead searching for ways to make the income tax get out of people's way.

Point D, I'm glad we can agree on. That was my number 1 "these people are nuts" moment, but the previous examples also seem to suggest that all taxes should be abolished, which is why I bolded them as well.

Regarding point E, I think we can all agree that prosecuting INNOCENT people is wrong. That goes without saying. They just implied that dodging taxation should not be punished by the government.

The involuntary servitude argument is terrible, though I didn't bold it. If I pay sales tax, the company is going to have to collect it and send it in to the government. That's not so awful.

Last one: read it again. It says we OPPOSE "the ELIMINATION of deductions, exemptions or credits." My attitude is, lower the rate, and abolish deductions, exemptions, and credits. All they do is punish certain types of activity, while rewarding others. They are the ultimate example of social engineering, and any good libertarian should oppose them.

I can tolerate a flat exemption, indexed for inflation by CPI, only as a compromise to get tax reform passed, but not much else.

[Richard]

There should be no taxes, only duties and levies.

[A18]

Duties and levies are taxes.

[Richard]

Duties and levies are taxes.

In the legal code there is a difference.  Just because your vocabulary doesn't stretch far enough doesn't mean it isn't so.

[Angel of Death]

http://geolib.pair.com/essays/sullivan.dan/royallib.html

[A18]

Duties and levies are taxes.

In the legal code there is a difference.  Just because your vocabulary doesn't stretch far enough doesn't mean it isn't so.

That's neat. In English, they're taxes.

AOD, owning land is just like owning anything else.

[Richard]

Duties and levies are taxes.

In the legal code there is a difference.  Just because your vocabulary doesn't stretch far enough doesn't mean it isn't so.

That's neat. In English, they're taxes.

Your vocabulary is limited.  I suggest you start reading a dictionary or try get more educated.

[A18]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=duty

A tax charged by a government, especially on imports.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levy
lev·ies
Money, property, or troops levied.

Levy
To impose or collect (a tax, for example)

[Richard]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=duty

A tax charged by a government, especially on imports.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levy
lev·ies
Money, property, or troops levied.

Levy
To impose or collect (a tax, for example)

What part of legal code do you not understand?

[A18]

You told me to read a dictionary. Well, I read it.

[Richard]

You told me to read a dictionary. Well, I read it.

I was actually picturing a real dictionary in my head, one with word etymologies and a bit more depth.  But whatever.  You may consider levies and duties to be a form of taxation, which is true, but strictly speaking, they are different from taxes.  I'm opposed to taxes, but not to duties and levies.

Totidem verbis.

[Frodo]

Yet another reminder of why I'm not a Libertarian and why they will continue to fail to achieve 1% of the vote.

You know, I bet if we changed this one plank to something more sensible, like simply supporting lower taxes where possible, and beefed up our foreign policy, we'd be a hell of a lot better off.

actually a group within the Libertarian Party has just formed for precisely that purpose:

http://www.reformthelp.org//home/intro/