Is ethno-religious identity oppressive?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Converting from Catholic to Protestant does NOT result in any of that except perhaps the new doctrine one. Even Jews that convert don't have to deal with most of that stuff.

Converting from lax 21st century north American Catholic to lax 21st century north American Protestant is like moving from 1234 Oompa Loompa Street, Tatertown, Land of Oz, Unit 503, Apartment 1B to 1234 Oompa Loompa Street, Tatertown, Land of Oz, Unit 503, Apartment 1A.

I don't disagree. However plenty clearly do. I've been told before if I was Irish-American and raised Catholic I'd be a totally different person than I am today on this forum, which I find comical. Remember I'm not the one arguing that "Catholic" is an ethnoreligious identity. Jewish might be, but a Jew who converts is not going to have to change their lifestyle, end relationships amongst non-Haredi (so vast majority of American Jews), or move to a new location or find a new job.

[patrick1]

Converting from Catholic to Protestant does NOT result in any of that except perhaps the new doctrine one. Even Jews that convert don't have to deal with most of that stuff.

Converting from lax 21st century north American Catholic to lax 21st century north American Protestant is like moving from 1234 Oompa Loompa Street, Tatertown, Land of Oz, Unit 503, Apartment 1B to 1234 Oompa Loompa Street, Tatertown, Land of Oz, Unit 503, Apartment 1A.

I don't disagree. However plenty clearly do. I've been told before if I was Irish-American and raised Catholic I'd be a totally different person than I am today on this forum, which I find comical. Remember I'm not the one arguing that "Catholic" is an ethnoreligious identity. Jewish might be, but a Jew who converts is not going to have to change their lifestyle, end relationships amongst non-Haredi (so vast majority of American Jews), or move to a new location or find a new job.

This may seem odd to you but for many people their ethno-religious identity is their link to the past and they celebrate traditions handed down centuries and even millennia. They find a beauty in the continuum of a shared folklore, art, music and yes even sometimes religious tradition. Frequently all of these things interact. 

Take someone from Italy, they may not know their catechism or think too deeply about the metaphysical or temporal implications of the latest papal doctrine, but they also may enjoy coming together as a community to celebrate their towns Saints day. Or a Jewish atheist who will still celebrate a Passover seder as their ancestors had done.

Now you also will have a more deeply ingrained sense of religious and cultural identity when that community was under assault and nearly eradicated in the past. In places like Ireland, Poland and pogrom era Russia, occupiers tried to destroy these heritages. This not need be a Jewish or Catholic phenomena as witnessed by the July 12th or Apprentice Boy's marches or Tibetan identity.

Of course, any religious or cultural tradition can be oppressive, but so can be any new doctrine that replaces it. see cults, Stalinism and many other examples. Ultimately freedom is that people should have the right to self identify how they want and believe what they want.

You should learn not to always try to remake the world in your image, BRTD. Respect is a two way street and you have no monopoly on the truth.

[Хahar 🤔]

I don't disagree. However plenty clearly do. I've been told before if I was Irish-American and raised Catholic I'd be a totally different person than I am today on this forum, which I find comical.

It would seem to me that your finding it comical demonstrates that you lack ethno-religious identity. I know that my own worldview is rooted in my religious identity to the extent that I cannot imagine having any other.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Converting from Catholic to Protestant does NOT result in any of that except perhaps the new doctrine one. Even Jews that convert don't have to deal with most of that stuff.

Converting from lax 21st century north American Catholic to lax 21st century north American Protestant is like moving from 1234 Oompa Loompa Street, Tatertown, Land of Oz, Unit 503, Apartment 1B to 1234 Oompa Loompa Street, Tatertown, Land of Oz, Unit 503, Apartment 1A.

I don't disagree. However plenty clearly do. I've been told before if I was Irish-American and raised Catholic I'd be a totally different person than I am today on this forum, which I find comical. Remember I'm not the one arguing that "Catholic" is an ethnoreligious identity. Jewish might be, but a Jew who converts is not going to have to change their lifestyle, end relationships amongst non-Haredi (so vast majority of American Jews), or move to a new location or find a new job.

This may seem odd to you but for many people their ethno-religious identity is their link to the past and they celebrate traditions handed down centuries and even millennia. They find a beauty in the continuum of a shared folklore, art, music and yes even sometimes religious tradition. Frequently all of these things interact.  

Take someone from Italy, they may not know their catechism or think too deeply about the metaphysical or temporal implications of the latest papal doctrine, but they also may enjoy coming together as a community to celebrate their towns Saints day. Or a Jewish atheist who will still celebrate a Passover seder as their ancestors had done.

Now you also will have a more deeply ingrained sense of religious and cultural identity when that community was under assault and nearly eradicated in the past. In places like Ireland, Poland and pogrom era Russia, occupiers tried to destroy these heritages. This not need be a Jewish or Catholic phenomena as witnessed by the July 12th or Apprentice Boy's marches or Tibetan identity.

Of course, any religious or cultural tradition can be oppressive, but so can be any new doctrine that replaces it. see cults, Stalinism and many other examples. Ultimately freedom is that people should have the right to self identify how they want and believe what they want.

You should learn not to always try to remake the world in your image, BRTD. Respect is a two way street and you have no monopoly on the truth.

So you disagree with Beet's statement? Because there's plenty of evidence in favor. There's plenty of people who left the Catholic church in my family and don't see it as a big deal. (Speaking of which I don't know even of those who still are who celebrate any saints day). I know a lot of ex-Catholics at my church, and a lot of my friends in the scene were raised as such but atheist, and don't identify as Catholic in even an ethno-religious sense. And this is the case with 1 out of 3 people raised Catholic in the US. It's quite common and is hardly sign of this being this unbreakable identity as oakvale talks about. And I think I've posted about that guy in Brooklyn from another forum who was raised Jewish but is now atheist and basically utterly hates his Jewish background and talks about things like how he'd like to throw pork at synagogues in Borough Park. (Basically he got pissed off when his barely observant parents found one of his Christian hardcore records with a cross on the cover and threw it away and was kind of disgusted by how insular and cliquey the community can be and wants nothing to do with it. His whole thought process seems to be that he's an atheist, and has no reason to be connected to any type of "Jewish community" in any way because in his view just like Christianity and Islam it's all nonsense anyway.) While I'm not disputing that he's clearly a little crazy and perhaps even bigoted, he still has a right to not identify as Jewish or identify with any type of Jewish identity even in a non-religious sense. And what about people with really diluted heritages? I'm 1/4 German Lutheran, 1/4 Swedish Lutheran, 1/4 German Catholic (hence I have a little Catholic ancestry too for that matter) and 1/4 Swedish Pietist (Baptist) in my background. What type of heritage am I going to celebrate or make a big fuss about? And this isn't uncommon, this sort of thing is the rule in the Midwest, where there's basically no one white with a homogeneous background. So is it just simply not an ethno-religious identity for some people? Is it just something that tends to be rejected by people I associate with? If so then there's clearly other factors at work than simply "Of this type of ancestry/raised this way".

I don't disagree. However plenty clearly do. I've been told before if I was Irish-American and raised Catholic I'd be a totally different person than I am today on this forum, which I find comical.

It would seem to me that your finding it comical demonstrates that you lack ethno-religious identity. I know that my own worldview is rooted in my religious identity to the extent that I cannot imagine having any other.

Of course I do. I'm a white guy from the Midwest.

[patrick1]

I think it would be probably be better if you stopped trying to create grand, unifying theories about such things.

There are always exceptions because you are dealing with individuals who have their own ideas and opinions on things, whatever their upbringing may have been.
At best you are dealing with broad generalizations. I'd agree that there is generally speaking more assimilation, at least of white 'ethnics', in the Midwest.  However, in a place like Chicago you would still find many who self ID as a Polish American or Irish American. Many of these people would also consider themselves a Catholic, even though there would be a staggering variety in belief and practice.Some may be bead counters, others may have been baptised and went to a mass or two.

Faith is a very individual decision, some care and many do not really give it much thought. I think that in American and more traditional countries many people who would be for all practical purposes atheists or agnostics still choose not to do so because there is still a stigma.

Now as for your scene, it does not surprise me that there are not many people who subscribe or identifying as say a Catholic. It is a new, ahem, artform with no real cultural heritage. Perhaps there is some still recent cultural values that leak from the punk movement, which as you know abhorred tradition and really wished to start anew and is anarchic by nature. If you were into some rocking Klezmer music you might find a different audience.

My closing thought that I have learned over the years is that it is usually a much better, healthier way to live if you focus on the things that unite people and not the differences. Despite being bombarded with evidence to the contrary, I still believe that people still want the same things out of life- a good life for themselves and their loved ones. I am leery of those who promise that there is one true way to get there and seek to impose it on others. Oppression can come in a variety of stripes, so huzzah for pluralism.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I agree with most of the above, but if anything the broadbrushing is coming from the other side, like if I had logs of some things oakvale and belgian said in IRC...btw I came across a great ag post that gives more insight into how this can be oppressive. Also for an example on the Jewish side on this forum just look at memphis, who mocks Jewish traditions, and clearly doesn't have any respect or places value on them despite previous oppression. So the main point is that regardless as some feel, there are going to be some that don't inherit the "identity" or just make a conscious decision to outright reject it. Those that do so shouldn't be regarded as this, and I think I've posted before about the uncomfortable implications in that if the religion and identity are interwined then it leads to that one who is not Catholic is not a "true" Irish, Italian, Polish, etc.

Also I don't think Beet's analogy before works that well. A better one and more accurate in how common is to compare two people, one from a poor, rundown and economically depressed area like somewhere in Appalachia, and one from a nicer, funner more prosperous area like some hipster area in a major city. Someone born in or near the second part obviously would have an easier time adapting, but that doesn't mean someone from the first area can't move to it, and that those who do won't adapt. And those that do move aren't selling out their families or communities or anything. That might be a factor in why those that choose to stay in areas like that do so. But not everyone does.