Secessionist Talk - Pro or Anti Democracy?

[Benjamin Stewart]

I have two close friends on opposite sides of this argument:

As you all probably know by now, there have been multiple groups of citizens in multiple states that have gathered the necessary number of signatures to file a Federal Petition for, in this case, secession.  The fact that this happens in nearly every election since Clinton, and that the only reason it's of any significance now is because of the internet providing a way to reach a previously unheard of amount of idiots aside, are these petitions and their contents pro or anti democracy?

Petition for Secession.  Should it be celebrated that we are free enough to do so?  Or should it be condemned as an act of anti-Americanism?

[Donerail]

Whatever. They're allowed to do that. Democracy and such.

[justfollowingtheelections]

I think they should do whatever they want.  If they want to secede, let them secede.

[SPC]

If the democracy as a governing form is the goal in and of itself, then of course secession is anti-democratic, since secession inherently undermines the tyranny of the majority by allowing the minority to part ways and form a government more conducive to their desires. If, on the other hand, democracy is seen as a means to an end, with that end being self-government, then secession is a requirement whenever the desires of the majority of a certain people contradict the desires of the government under which the aformentioned people live. And of course direct democracy, the purest form of democratic government you can have, is impossible under large states but prevalent in small jurisdictions such as the Swiss cantons.

[5280]

Let them secede if they wish, the more states that do so will divide the United States more. This will make the country appear weak and plummet like a lead weight.

[justfollowingtheelections]

People keep saying that America will look weak if some states secede, but I honestly don't see it.
Let's assume that the republican states seceded, and then the West Coast states, plus CO and NM also had to leave the union due to the fact that the republican states are in between them and the East Coast states.  We would then have 6 new countries that would look something like this:

The United States (the red states in the map) would still be a really strong state, with the best universities in the world, huge cities, a big population, a strong and diverse economy, and many tourist attractions such as NYC and Florida.
Also, the United States would still be one of the top 2 countries in medals at the Summer Olympics since most of the top US athletes are either from the Northeast or California.

[Wake Me Up When The Hard Border Ends]

Doesn't bother me, my state in Australia almost seceded from the rest of the country in 1933, the referendum was only blocked by King George V.

EDIT: I would vote for secession if there was another referendum on the subject.

[Redalgo]

It is important to take the context of secessionist talk into consideration. Succession is a splendid way to pursue national self-determination and even improve the efficacy of democratic institutions if the country one is already part of does not afford adequate means of translating the people’s moral values into public policy. It makes sense to break away if policies deeply conflict with what most people within a region want, and when outsiders tend to dominate the policymaking process.

On the other hand, from my perspective, secessionist petitions come off as being asinine and anti-democratic when the people calling for them are just peeved by the results of free elections. That is to say, I think there’s a profound gulf of difference between yearnings for a fair degree of representation in government and reflexive denials of the legitimacy of opposition leaders one is prejudiced against whenever they get their turn in power. What is the point of even having a representative democracy in the first place if voters are unwilling to tolerate an occasional defeat via ballot box?

[pbrower2a]

There might be some question of whether the secessionists believe in democracy after secession. One hears much about the 10th Amendment from some of these people, but nothing of the 13th, 14th, or 15th. Considering that the 14th prohibits the States from doing much that is prohibited by the 5th at the federal level...

Would those states that became republics become dictatorships? Would they so disenfranchise people that only a small proportion of the people could participate in the process?  Would they allow secession themselves? Would they recognize basic human rights? Would they instead allow the tyranny of the majority?

[TNF]

They want to leave the country because Barry got re-elected. If that's not the very definition of something undemocratic, I don't know what is. They can't accept the results of the election, so they want to cut and run like a bunch of cowards.

But of course, it's a moot point. It will never happen, because we've been down this road before when a small minority of people tried to rebel against the democratically elected government of the United States. Secession is illegal under the federal Constitution, and states are subservient to the federal government, as has been the case since the revolution. There is no other nation within the United States but the American one, and those who would seek to tear us asunder are little more than traitorous or treasonous dupes without a lick of sense and/or an understanding of our history.

[Mehmentum]

In theory secession is Democratic.  These particular petitions aren't though, they're just childish. 

If the people making the secession petition have a legitimate concern, such as being systematically neglected by the national government, I would understand.  This is not the case.  In fact, many of the states where the petitions are coming from take in much more in federal dollars than they pay back in federal taxes.

[SPC]

In fact, many of the states where the petitions are coming from take in much more in federal dollars than they pay back in federal taxes.

Isn't that a good argument for letting them secede if you don't reside in that state?

[CountryRoads]

My loyalty is to the UNITED STATES of America, not the DIVIDED STATES of America. I have always opposed secession, and am pretty sure I always will.

You can't like Democracies or Republics only when your side wins.

[Bandit3 the Worker]

It's anti-democracy. It would have been pro-democracy if this was 1994 or 2000. But it isn't.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

My girlfriend (who has a sympathetic heartstring for the Lost Cause) asked me (as someone who refers to the confederates as "rebel traitors") how I would ever justify secession if I didn't support the south seceding. 

I answered that secession is only valid if it increases human freedom and progress.  Obviously that's a subjective judgement.  When the US Colonies seceded from Britain, they undoubtedly increased the potential for liberty.  If a secession movement is founded to increase discrimination or limit rights, I believe history will judge it to be morally bankrupt and invalid.

[Bandit3 the Worker]

I answered that secession is only valid if it increases human freedom and progress.

That's why secession would have been justified 10 years ago, but not now.

[opebo]

People keep saying that America will look weak if some states secede, but I honestly don't see it.
Let's assume that the republican states seceded, and then the West Coast states, plus CO and NM also had to leave the union due to the fact that the republican states are in between them and the East Coast states.  We would then have 6 new countries that would look something like this:

The United States (the red states in the map) would still be a really strong state, with the best universities in the world, huge cities, a big population, a strong and diverse economy, and many tourist attractions such as NYC and Florida.
Also, the United States would still be one of the top 2 countries in medals at the Summer Olympics since most of the top US athletes are either from the Northeast or California.

I think it would be better for Arizona to be absorbed into the West Coast State, so that Colorado and New Mexico could join continuously (since they're really quite similar), allowing Utah to be a stand-alone Mormania.  Alaska and Hawai should also join this nation, so, in the end you have three strong states, two middle of the road and one rightwing/religious, and one oddball state for the Mormen.  Probably the red state should join Canada if possible.

[justfollowingtheelections]

People keep saying that America will look weak if some states secede, but I honestly don't see it.
Let's assume that the republican states seceded, and then the West Coast states, plus CO and NM also had to leave the union due to the fact that the republican states are in between them and the East Coast states.  We would then have 6 new countries that would look something like this:

The United States (the red states in the map) would still be a really strong state, with the best universities in the world, huge cities, a big population, a strong and diverse economy, and many tourist attractions such as NYC and Florida.
Also, the United States would still be one of the top 2 countries in medals at the Summer Olympics since most of the top US athletes are either from the Northeast or California.

I think it would be better for Arizona to be absorbed into the West Coast State, so that Colorado and New Mexico could join continuously (since they're really quite similar), allowing Utah to be a stand-alone Mormania.  Alaska and Hawai should also join this nation, so, in the end you have three strong states, two middle of the road and one rightwing/religious, and one oddball state for the Mormen.  Probably the red state should join Canada if possible.

I agree but my map is just the map of the 2012 elections.  You're right about the western red states being a good fit for Harper's Canada.

[Simfan34]

I like this proposal.



The United States of America
Florida (disputed between USA and NAC)
The North American Confederation
Missoula Territory and Snake River Territory (disputed between Cascadia and NAC)
The United Cascadian States
The Californian Republic
The Republic of Utah (unrecognized, disputed between California and NAC)

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

How about this:

United States of America; indivisible & inseparable
(and hopefully one day this map will include a spot for Puerto Rico)

[Simfan34]

How about this:

I do not want a Democratic one-party state.

[Blackacre]

People keep saying that America will look weak if some states secede, but I honestly don't see it.
Let's assume that the republican states seceded, and then the West Coast states, plus CO and NM also had to leave the union due to the fact that the republican states are in between them and the East Coast states.  We would then have 6 new countries that would look something like this:

The United States (the red states in the map) would still be a really strong state, with the best universities in the world, huge cities, a big population, a strong and diverse economy, and many tourist attractions such as NYC and Florida.
Also, the United States would still be one of the top 2 countries in medals at the Summer Olympics since most of the top US athletes are either from the Northeast or California.

Why on earth would the East Coast leave? The only thing I can think of is Geography, but we can manage with today's tech. Nobody's going to invade us anyway.

I do not want a Democratic one-party state.

If all the Republican states seceded, the remaining states would probably spend a little time as one-party Democratic before another party emerges that's big enough to take the Dems on. Ironically, that party would end up being more liberal than the Dems, formed by liberals disappointed in the moderation of the Democratic party.

[Blackacre]

How about this:

United States of America; indivisible & inseparable
(and hopefully one day this map will include a spot for Puerto Rico)

Puerto Rico voted to be a state, so it'll happen soon, probably by 2016. Nobody's seceding, we're just speculating idly right now... I think anyway

[Antonio the Sixth]

It certainly does no good to democracy to throw a tantrum and threaten to secede every time you lose an election.