Is America in an unstoppable decline?

[J. J.]

The last time I heard about the "American Decline" was in the 1970's. 

[Foucaulf]

What is more disturbing: the fear that America is an unstoppable decline or the belief that the world is in such a slump that Americans are doing relatively well?

The European welfare state is ephemeral, and is now being trampled on in the name of austerity. Developing countries are growing rapidly, but only because they need to make up for the decades lost under imperalism and disorder. Developed countries who still struggle with debt problems devastate the land as a stopgap measure. And there still remains a permanent underclass of a billion people who live every day on the brink of death.

What has not changed is a faith among the Americans that has infected the rest of the world. America has shown itself to be the land of Thomas Edison, Henry Ford and Steve Jobs. This isn't by coincidence, since America had plenty of resources, a constantly flow of labour and an excellent research infrastructure. But so long as Americans continue to believe in the heroic entrepreneur, America will not be in decline - while Americans descend for the worse.

[opebo]

But that's like saying the slaughterhouse isn't functioning well because the pigs don't like it.

There are slaughterhouses that don't go out of their way to abuse the pigs before killing them, and they tend to work better than ones that do, actually.

Yes, I know, but Americans are masochistic pigs, apparently.

[King]

America is always in decline by some measuring stick.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

But that's like saying the slaughterhouse isn't functioning well because the pigs don't like it.

There are slaughterhouses that don't go out of their way to abuse the pigs before killing them, and they tend to work better than ones that do, actually.

Yes, I know, but Americans are masochistic pigs, apparently.

That seems a little unfair to masochists.

[Link]

The last time I heard about the "American Decline" was in the 1970's. 

No TV, Internet, or radio where you live?

[King]

The last time I heard about the "American Decline" was in the 1970's. 

The Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil by Michael C. Ruppert, 2004

Slouching Towards Gomorrah: Modern Liberalism and American Decline by Robert Bork, 1996

The Decline of Intelligence in America: A Strategy for National Renewal by Seymour W. Itzkoff, 1994

Quantifying America's Decline by William J. Bennett, 1993

IS AMERICA IN DECLINE?, New York Times, 1988

Necessary Lessons: Decline and Renewal in American Schools by Gilbert T. Sewall, 1983

It's amazing we're all still here with all this decline.  Perhaps it's all just dewhine.

[Jacobtm]

All those books, to some degree, were right.

We peaked somewhere in the 60s or 70s

[Link]

We peaked somewhere in the 60s or 70s

Speak for yourself...

[J. J.]

The last time I heard about the "American Decline" was in the 1970's. 

No TV, Internet, or radio where you live?

Still, the last time I heard this American Decline stuff was in the 1970's.  Now is this time.  Today is this Wednesday.  1/4/12 was last Wednesday.

[J. J.]

All those books, to some degree, were right.

We peaked somewhere in the 60s or 70s

We definitely did not peak in the 1970's.

[Link]

America's obesity epidemic isn't a joke, it's a tragedy, brought into sharp relief by going anywhere else in the world.

Define unstoppable...

[Link]

The last time I heard about the "American Decline" was in the 1970's. 

No TV, Internet, or radio where you live?

Still, the last time I heard this American Decline stuff was in the 1970's.  Now is this time.  Today is this Wednesday.  1/4/12 was last Wednesday.

exactly.

[memphis]

What's up with the conservative decline meme anyway? I know they appeal to a mythic past that never existed and all, but it's pretty ridiculous when you compare actual statistics. In the not so distant past, people were dropping dead from diseases that are super easy to treat now. Take a good look at this guy:

That's what happens when the only thing you have to eat day after day is corn. It was a common problem in the early 20th century.
And then there were these people.

They weren't playing around.

The left wasn't all warm and fuzzy either

And best of all


As for the second half of the 20th century, an improvement over the first, but still



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_White

We're far from perfect in 2012, but I don't know how people can take the decline meme seriously.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Of course not.  Rumors of America's decline are greatly exaggerated.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Memphis, all of those things you list in the "second half of the C20th" part of your post could easily happen now.

Of course, what seems to be happening is that America is talking itself into decline which seems to serve certain interests very well...

[Negusa Nagast 🚀]

Every decade charges of "decline" are shouted, and according to the metrics they present, it seems we are. However, we continue to triumph and are the economic, technological, and military leader of the world.

If you measure America on the yardstick of obesity, then it appears we're in a tough time, but most indicators seem to suggest otherwise.

[TJ in Oregon]

Memphis, all of those things you list in the "second half of the C20th" part of your post could easily happen now.

The Cuyahoga River cannot catch on fire today because there's not enough industry left on its banks to pollute it. Cleveland has declined too much for that to happen anymore (of course one could argue that we're better off now in this respect, and maybe the fish in the river are, but I would argue that Cleveland on the whole is not).

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Memphis, all of those things you list in the "second half of the C20th" part of your post could easily happen now.

The Cuyahoga River cannot catch on fire today because there's not enough industry left on its banks to pollute it. Cleveland has declined too much for that to happen anymore (of course one could argue that we're better off now in this respect, and maybe the fish in the river are, but I would argue that Cleveland on the whole is not).

I mean that more generally (ie. "Pollution related disasters").

This talk of water going on fire reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ApZkNsXfJE

[memphis]

Memphis, all of those things you list in the "second half of the C20th" part of your post could easily happen now.

Of course, what seems to be happening is that America is talking itself into decline which seems to serve certain interests very well...

No, kids are not kicked out of public schools because of their HIV status.  Protesters are not attacked by the police with dogs and firehoses. Rivers don't catch on fire. And our bombing campaigns are super targeted, so that fewer civilians are killed. The war in Vietnam saw far more civilians killed than the war in Iraq. And course, media censorship of the war in Iraq is such that we'd never have a photo like that anyway

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Memphis, all of those things you list in the "second half of the C20th" part of your post could easily happen now.

Of course, what seems to be happening is that America is talking itself into decline which seems to serve certain interests very well...

No, kids are not kicked out of public schools because of their HIV status.  Protesters are not attacked by the police with dogs and firehoses. Rivers don't catch on fire. And our bombing campaigns are super targeted, so that fewer civilians are killed. The war in Vietnam saw far more civilians killed than the war in Iraq. And course, media censorship of the war in Iraq is such that we'd never have a photo like that anyway

1/ True. But I suspect that has more to do with HIV being a new illness at the time

2/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/24/excop-pleads-guilty-in-hu_n_475781.html. Not quite the same thing, but still... (also, what was said earlier about prisons).

Iraq was a very different war from Vietnam. There was a clear and obvious "enemy" who was being financially supported by America's two great rivals for power and influence at the time. The sort of situation of "Vietnam" in that sense couldn't happen now, but that has very little to do with the US.

I'm not saying that things haven't improved - though I'm not an American so I can't speak with great conviction - but if it has it's due to the organizational and community efforts of Americans.

Other dampener: Religion (with a big "R") is much more important in American politics than it was pre-Reagan. But that seems to be true nearly everywhere...

[memphis]

I'm not saying that things haven't improved - though I'm not an American so I can't speak with great conviction - but if it has it's due to the organizational and community efforts of Americans.

Organzations can do great things. But so can technology. Want to go back to before we had clean drinking water on demand? Before we had antibiotics? Before we had electricity? Before we had the internet? I certainly don't.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I'm not saying that things haven't improved - though I'm not an American so I can't speak with great conviction - but if it has it's due to the organizational and community efforts of Americans.

Organzations can do great things. But so can technology. Want to go back to before we had clean drinking water on demand? Before we had antibiotics? Before we had electricity? Before we had the internet? I certainly don't.

Sometimes I personally wouldn't mind the latter but that is a personal preference for myself.

Given the video clip I posted beforehand, it is somewhat ironic you mentioned clean water on demand.

But generally of course not, but we are talking about a country here, the specifics of a material time and place are one thing and what are done with them is another...

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

No.  What does "unstoppable decline" even mean?  Does that mean declining until we no longer exist?  Certainly not.

[Yelnoc]

No.

Demographically we are golden through this century.  We are massively wealthy compared to the rest of the world.  We have the best universities in the world (taken as a whole).  We have so much that we take for granted.  Are we entering a rough spot?  Sure we are.  But every country that could conceivably rival us in the next several decades has massive structural problems. China has a corrupt, authoritarian government and a massive poor population, not to mention the problems it is having transitioning its economy.  India is hobbled by a huge poor population, a lingering caste system, a Maoist insurgency, and other huge differences between its various component states.  The European Union is falling apart at the seems, and none of its component nations are large enough in any sense to take us on.  Russia and Japan are both entering a severe demographic crunch

Perhaps if America is severely mismanaged for the next several decades, Brazil might surpass us.  They have a large, mixed population with lots of open land and plentiful natural resources, like us.  Their economy has plenty of room to expand, which gives them a leg up.  If for some unfathomable reason, America reverts to nativism, I imagine Brazil would swallow a lot of immigrants.  But I don't think they will catch with economically for decades.  Even them, that is not the same as an "unstoppable" decline.  Our structural problems are nothing compared to most of the world.