Pentacostals

[memphis]

Check out some of their services on youtube. Seriously, wtf?

[Beet]

Their paradigm is not the same as a regular church. You are expected to be fully into it, because that is how you get the most value out of it. They see church has basically something halfhearted, and why waste your time? In a way it makes sense. A lot of regular people end up going to those places to get a sense of belonging.

[Ebowed]

I've been to Pentacostal churches before.  The thing that bugs me most about their creed is the implicit suggestion that God's love is conditional; that is, bad things happen to people as a result of their sins.  This is a good way of encouraging people to pray and attend church, but it's also an even better way of making people who have suffered horrible traumas feel like shit.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

haven't view the video, but I went to a Pentacostal service once while I was visiting Georgia.  It was pretty much chaos.

[JSojourner]

I attended a Pentecostal Church in Chicago for about a year.  Let me try to offer some perspective.

First, before you come down too hard on any of the Charismatic/Pentecostal churches, it's important to remember that they were pretty much born in 1906 during the Azusa Street Revivals in Los Angeles. Then, and now, these Christians were just about the ONLY ones who held racially integrated services and meetings.  You've heard the saying, "Sunday morning at 11:00 a.m. is the most segregated hour in America"?  It's true -- but not usually in Pentecostal or Charismatic settings. 

Second, these folks -- because of their openess to people of color -- have tended to be the only Evangelicals who gave a damn about poverty and social justice issues (at least before the last few years, since some non-Pentecostal Evangelicals are finally waking up).  In the Civil Rights marches, for example, you could easily find liberal Protestants and Penecostals.

The church I attended -- called Philadelphia Church -- was attractive to me for this reason.  Bag ladies and bankers attended the same service.  Romanian immigrants feeling Ceaucescu were cared for and supported by the church.  That's what appealed to me.

However, criticisms of Pentecostal and Charismatic theology are manifold and mostly justified. Keep in mind, not all Pentecostals and Charismatics view things in exactly the same way.  But VERY GENERALLY SPEAKING they...

*  Believe it's acceptable for the sick to seek medical care, but there are extremists like Hobart Freeman's Faith Assembly, that consider it a lack of faith.  My own sister took a couple years to get her son to a doctor for diabetes because someone at her church received a "word from the Lord" that the boy would be healed.  He wasn't and his condition got worse.  I would suggest that while this is not the norm, it is also not an extreme rarity in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles.

*  Believe that one must speak in tongues, either to be saved or to be a truly "spirit-filled" Christian.  Some Pentecostal/Charismatic churches insist that one isn't truly saved until one has spoken in tongues.  Most say you can be saved, but you are "less than" if you have not.  My own pastor tried to "teach me" how to speak in tongues.  That's when I knew there was a thief in the woodpile -- if speaking in tongues is of God, I wouldn't need lessons from a man.  What's more, scripture says NOTHING about tongues being necessary for either salvation or maturity.

*   Believe that many problems -- ranging from obesity and nicotine addiction to mental illness and physical diseases -- are cause by demonic possession or demonic oppression.  Often, demons are blamed for anything a person doesn't like.  So, instead of going to Weight Watchers or alcoholics anonymous, some (and I emphasize SOME) Pentecostal and Charismatic folks simply wait and pray for what they call "deliverance".  There are even specific teachers and preachers who claim to have "deliverance" ministries, where they allegedly cast demons out of sick, depressed or otherwise struggling individuals.  If you read the novels about demonic activity by Assemblies of God minister Frank Peretti, you will see that there's a thinking in this circle that demons are controlling governments, colleges and universities, public schools, and lots of other areas.  In Peretti's books, the demon-possessed are almost always liberals, intellectuals or -- LOL -- journalists.  (Ok, so they got one right! LOL)

*   Believe that health, wealth, success and just about all good things can be appropriated.  Some (like televangelist Joyce Meyer) teach that you can do this by "speaking things" into existence.  It's sort of like the Power of Positive Thinking on crack.  My sister, for example, told me she is "speaking a word of success" over her husband's business.  Whatever that means.  It sounds harmless and probably often is.  Until the desired outcome doesn't happen, and the "speaker" is left brokenhearted, discouraged or -- in the worst cases -- told that they have a lack of faith. 

*   Believe in Triumphalism -- not just the eventual victory of Jesus Christ over sin, death and injustice at the time of his Second Coming -- but in the here and now.  They believe -- oddly enough, along with Dominionists and Theonomists -- that Christians can, should and will take back America for Jesus Christ and establish a Christian theocracy.  For many, this is viewed as a benevolent place where all are welcomed as long as they play by the Christian rule book, not just Christians.  For a few, this means getting rid of anyone who is not sufficiently Christian or conservative. 

To read more about one of the fastest growing religious movements in the world, let me recommend several excellent books...

1.   Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur  (I sometimes think MacArthur, as is his wont, is unduly harsh.  He is so rightly alarmed at the Charismatic/Pentecostal abuses of Scripture that I think he risks the same.  For example, MacArthur asserts that speaking in tongues is never authentically sent by God and hasn't been since the end of the early church.  There is some, but precious little, scriptural evidence for this.  What's more, there is ample scripturalm evidence to show that sign gifts may be extant today. Still, MacArthur does a fine job on the whole of exposing the overall excesses and borderline heresies of the movement.

2.  Christianity in Crisis by Hank Hanegraaff  (Hanegraff is, himself, Charismatic.  But he is one of the more sensible, scriptural folks on that side of the movement.  Only Nixon could go to China.  And only Hanegraff could so ably take apart the "name it and claim it"/"blab it and grab it" Word Of Faith heresy.  An outstanding book, replete with examples of downright heretical statements by Benny Hinn, Jan & Paul Crouch, Kenneth Hagin, Creflo Dollar and about 30 other noted Pentecostal/Charismatic preachers.  There's a tape you can get with the book so you can hear the actual statements in question.  Blew my mind.

Anyway, that's it in a rather large nutshell.  I have met and known thousands of Pentecostal and Charismatic folks.  I find most of them to be wonderfully kind, generous, warm-hearted people.  But I am not sure I would be comfortable with any of them -- given their beliefs about demons and triumphalism -- with their finger on the button.

[afleitch]

I've seen videos of this sort of meeting.

I don't think I could keep a straight face. I think I would be kicked out for laughing as that is my first reaction above anything else. It's finding humour in their actions more than their intent; I find other things to be concerned about in their intent.

[JSojourner]

I've seen videos of this sort of meeting.

I don't think I could keep a straight face. I think I would be kicked out for laughing as that is my first reaction above anything else. It's finding humour in their actions more than their intent; I find other things to be concerned about in their intent.

Andrew,

Laughing is a whole other problem for Pentecostals.  Do a google on "holy laughter" or "The Toronto Blessing".  If you can stand it...

[afleitch]

I've seen videos of this sort of meeting.

I don't think I could keep a straight face. I think I would be kicked out for laughing as that is my first reaction above anything else. It's finding humour in their actions more than their intent; I find other things to be concerned about in their intent.

Andrew,

Laughing is a whole other problem for Pentecostals.  Do a google on "holy laughter" or "The Toronto Blessing".  If you can stand it...

I wish I hadn't looked now!

[JSojourner]

I've seen videos of this sort of meeting.

I don't think I could keep a straight face. I think I would be kicked out for laughing as that is my first reaction above anything else. It's finding humour in their actions more than their intent; I find other things to be concerned about in their intent.

Andrew,

Laughing is a whole other problem for Pentecostals.  Do a google on "holy laughter" or "The Toronto Blessing".  If you can stand it...

I wish I hadn't looked now!

You need to heed your Uncle Jim's warnings.  ;-)

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Just found this and interestingly:

Their paradigm is not the same as a regular church. You are expected to be fully into it, because that is how you get the most value out of it. They see church has basically something halfhearted, and why waste your time? In a way it makes sense. A lot of regular people end up going to those places to get a sense of belonging.

I pretty much completely agree with this way of thinking. It's kind of the same way I view hardcore shows, and why I see more of a point to them than like an opera or orchestral performance where everyone remains seated peacefully the whole time.

[The Mikado]

Why did I know who promoted this thread the second I saw the title?

Also, who's to say that people that aren't spasming and head-twitching like epileptic twits aren't interacting with a work on a fundamental level?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I've never seen people spasm or head-twitch at church or a hardcore show. Yes I'm aware Pentecostals do that. I'm just agreeing with the general idea.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

I've never seen people spasm or head-twitch at church or a hardcore show. Yes I'm aware Pentecostals do that. I'm just agreeing with the general idea.

I've seen it and the laughter too. I get why many think Pentacostals are out there.  I've even seen gold dust as well in such meetings. I know the head-twitch well.  In fact it happened regularly to me for several years. I've seen people's legs even out, including my own,(many have back pain because one leg would be longer than the other though I did not). 

[I Am Feeblepizza.]

I've never seen people spasm or head-twitch at church or a hardcore show. Yes I'm aware Pentecostals do that. I'm just agreeing with the general idea.

I've seen it and the laughter too. I get why many think Pentacostals are out there.  I've even seen gold dust as well in such meetings. I know the head-twitch well.  In fact it happened regularly to me for several years. I've seen people's legs even out, including my own,(many have back pain because one leg would be longer than the other though I did not). 

Gold dust? Legs evening out? What do those things entail?

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

The leg thing would be considered a healing and gold dust out of nowhere is a sign/wonder

[afleitch]

and gold dust out of nowhere is a sign/wonder

Craft store planted glitter. I'd forgotten about that fad.

[TheGlobalizer]

Mass psychosis.

[afleitch]

Mass psychosis.

Exactly. And those who were involved in manufacturing it but have since left the Pentacostalist movement admit how it's done.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

and gold dust out of nowhere is a sign/wonder

Craft store planted glitter. I'd forgotten about that fad.

The incident I saw it, there was no way it could've been planted.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

and gold dust out of nowhere is a sign/wonder

Craft store planted glitter. I'd forgotten about that fad.

The incident I saw it, there was no way it could've been planted.

LOL. Stage magicians pull off stuff like that all the time. That's why I draw the line between charismatics (good) and Pentecostals (bad). I'd just rather have church be a bit closer to a punk/hardcore/indie show than something like an opera.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

We're more like a mix between a Lifehouse show and a punk/indie show with some hip hop thrown in.

[Ebowed]

We're more like a mix between a Lifehouse show and a punk/indie show with some hip hop thrown in.

So I could just stay home and listen to the radio?