A Proposal

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

What follows in a proposed listing of the Powers of the Senate.  It is loosely based upon Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution and I do not consider it to be a finished proposal at this moment.  In particular it lacks the general Welfare portion of Clause 1.  I consider that a bit broad myself, but I do not favor its wholesale removal either.  I await the proposal of Mr. Bell so that I may steal incorporate those principles of his proposal that I feel may improve mine.  Since this mess has occurred because the Court struck more broadly than I had envisioned they would, I feel some responsibility to assist in the fixing thereof.

Enumerated Powers Amendment

The Senate shall have the power -

§ 1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the Regions of Atlasia and the District of Columbia.

§ 2. To borrow money on the credit of Atlasia and repay such debts.

§ 3. To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several Regions.

§ 4. To establish uniform rules of naturalization, marriage, divorce, and adoption throughout Atlasia.

§ 5. To establish uniform laws on the subjects of bankruptcies and contracts throughout Atlasia.

§ 6. To provide for the Punishment of Fraud in a uniform manner throughout Atlasia.

§ 7. To establish coin and currency, regulate the value thereof, with respect to other coin and currency.

§ 8. To fix standards of weights and measures and of such items of manufacture as it deems needful throughout Atlasia.

§ 9. To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right throughout Atlasia to their respective Writings and Discoveries for limited Times which may not be extended once secured.

§ 10. To build or regulate the infrastructure needed for communication and transportation.

§ 11. To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court.

§ 12. To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations.

§ 13. To provide for the common defense of Atlasia; and to declare war upon its enemies.

§ 14. To raise and support armed forces and to make rules for the government and regulation of the armed forces of Atlasia.

§ 15. To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions.

§ 16. To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of Atlasia, reserving to the Regions respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.

§ 17. To exercise exclusive legislation, in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding twelve nautical miles square) as may, by cession of particular Regions, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of Atlasia, and to be known as the District of Columbia.

§ 18. To exercise exclusive legislation, in all cases whatsoever, over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the Region in which the same shall be, for the provision of military facilities, courthouses, and other needful buildings.

§ 19. To exercise exclusive legislation, in all cases whatsoever, over such Territory as may be under the jurisdiction of Atlasia, but are not part of any Region.

§ 20. And to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the powers enumerated in this amendment, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of Atlasia, or in any department or officer thereof.

[Bono]

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§ 3. To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several Regions.

What are you, nuts?

Haven't you lerned anything from the past?

Take that out and replace it by this:

No region shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.

No region shall, without the consent of the Senate, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws: and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any region on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United Forum; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of the Senate.

No region shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm actually fairly happy with the current balance of power between the Federal and State governments in the US, altho I think the Federal government could use some trimming.  The commerce clause isn't all that troublesome in my opinion, altho it has been abused.  The current US Supreme Court has begun redressing the balance, and with the current Atlasian Supreme Court, I doubt that such abusal will go very far in light of the Hollings decision.  Now if there is a specific way you feel that the commerce clause needs to be revised or hemmed in, please let me know.

As for the addition of an Amendment similar to Artilce I Section 10, that probably would be a good idea as well, but not a direct clone.  This isn't 1787 after all  whihc is why instead of post officies and post roads I listed Transportation and communication in my reprise of Section 8.

[Bono]

What about

§ 3. To regulate commerce with foreign nations and upheld the non existance of tariffs between the regions, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing their inspection laws.

??

[Peter]

For the Senate Powers Amendment I am simply going to make suggestions in this thread and hope that Ernest incorporates them - we hardly need about 5 slightly different versions of Article I Section 8 running around.

Section 11 is unnecessary - we are only having the SC. The Constitution already lays out the procedure for trials.

17, 18, 19 are unnecessary because (a) we're in cyberspace so there is no DC to control or any place in the regions where federal buildings are situated. (b) All parts of Atlasia are in the regions, and we're not planning to acquire more territory, are we?

Please add the following clauses:

To make all rules it shall consider necessary to facilitate the carrying out of elections to federal offices.

To make rules for the removal of any office-holder in the event of inactivity of the said office-holder.

To provide for the education of the people of Atlasia.

Nothing in this Article shall be so construed as to allow the Senate to deny the rights previously guaranteed under this Constitution to the People.
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Personally I also advocate a general welfare clause, but there's no point arguing about that here as you've already decided to remove the clause.

[Bono]

17, 18, 19 are unnecessary because (a) we're in cyberspace so there is no DC to control or any place in the regions where federal buildings are situated. (b) All parts of Atlasia are in the regions, and we're not planning to acquire more territory, are we?

What about Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands etc?

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I totally oppose this. Education is a regional right.

[Peter]

What about Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands etc?

I wasn't aware that there are any Atlas citizens registered in those territories or indeed, that it was possible to register in them at all. Therefore I presume that all territories don't exist. If this is not the case, it would probably be a good idea to incorporate them into a specific region. The Western Region would probably be best as it already has Hawaii

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Beyond my usual response that only people have rights, and governments have powers, there's not much I can say except that we'll have to agree to disagree.

If we take the view that as much power should be reserved to the regions as possible then the Senate isn't gonna be able to do much - personally I would like the Senate to be able to pass laws on as many topics as possible just so that we get more variety, as opposed to having to stick to foreign affairs and defence issues the entire time.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

For the Senate Powers Amendment I am simply going to make suggestions in this thread and hope that Ernest incorporates them - we hardly need about 5 slightly different versions of Article I Section 8 running around.

All I hope my proposal will be is a starting point for the debate that the senate will have.  I certainly have no objections to anyone wishing to use my proposal as a starting point for other proposals.  However, I reserve the right to reorder and renumber the sections from draft to draft.

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We only have the Supreme Court at present.  If we ever need inferior courts, either to create positions for deserving Atlasians or to serve as a source of cases for the GM to raise for the Supreme Court to consider, this section would allow it and given its presence in the source material, I see no reason to not include it now and get it done with.

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17: Since the Senate is no longer elected from the Regions, I would actually like to see DC removed from the Regions and placed under direct Senate control. Even if it is not, see my response below concerning 19.

18:  It definitely is necessary if we retain in Atlasia the idea of co-sovereignity that is central to the US system.  It establishes the procedure by which a State (or in our case Regions) cedes its portion of sovereignity over Federal facilities within that State and thereby makes the Federal government sole soverign in those cases where a sole sovereign is essential.  Without 18 or something similar, then either the State would be unable to relinquish sovereignity when it is needful or the Federal government would be able to exclude State sovereignity when it is not needed.  Neither outcome is desireable.

19:  This is a recasting of Article IV Section 3 Clause 2 of the US Constitution.  One of the benefits of clauses 17 and 19 is that they give the Senate the ability to dabble in matters that would otherwise be left to only the Regions to do.  While the fantasy forum does not have at present anyone for the Territories, the Atlas does have several people who registered as being from Puerto Rico.

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I believe that this is one of the few powers tha court said the Senate already had.

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The Constitution already has rules for removing office holders, they just don't work on automatic as some people would like.  Considering that there wasn't any real difficulty encountered in removing migrendel by those procedures, I don't consider this an urgent issue and one that would best be resolved by looking at the topic on its own so that we don't end up with a patchwork of parts of the Constitution dealing with removal from office under various circumstances.

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A specific area of the General Welfare clause, and certainly worth including so as to at the very least provide a reference point for the debate the Senate will have.

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A good idea but a bit narrow in my opinion.  Something along those lines will be included in my next draft so as to present a starting point for Senate deliberations.

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I think it overbroad myself, but as with the education clause, if people come up with specifics that curremtly fit under the General Welfare that  they wish to see included, I have no problem with adding them to my proposal, even if I may or may not have reservations of the worth of such a particular clause.

[Bono]

What about Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands etc?

I wasn't aware that there are any Atlas citizens registered in those territories or indeed, that it was possible to register in them at all. Therefore I presume that all territories don't exist. If this is not the case, it would probably be a good idea to incorporate them into a specific region. The Western Region would probably be best as it already has Hawaii

Well, no, but technically, they are there. And they didn't have state status in the US, so they shouldn't be included in any of the regions, as that also would alter the balance of the regions as prescrived in the constitution.

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Beyond my usual response that only people have rights, and governments have powers, there's not much I can say except that we'll have to agree to disagree.

If we take the view that as much power should be reserved to the regions as possible then the Senate isn't gonna be able to do much - personally I would like the Senate to be able to pass laws on as many topics as possible just so that we get more variety, as opposed to having to stick to foreign affairs and defence issues the entire time.
[/quote]

Well, the main reason I oppose it is because it forces the federal government to provide education. If it were something allowing for the federal governenment to intervene in it, but allwoed also its non-intervention, and permited privatisation, I would be much less likely to object.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Eventually, I'll want to renumber these sections so as to keep things simple , but for now, so as to keep from reposting all 20 of the earlier sections while keeping a record of what was, let me add three new sections to my proposal as sections 10a, 10b, and 10c.

§ 10a. To promote the Public Health, by the conducting of researches, investigations, experiments, and demonstrations relating to the cause, diagnosis, and treatment of medical disorders and by assisting and fostering such research activities by public and private agencies.

§ 10b. To protect the Public Health and commerce, by providing for the quarantine, vaccination, and treatment of individuals, animals and plants as needed to prevent the spread of contagious diseases.

§ 10c. To promote the distribution of Knowledge of Science and useful Arts, by assisting and fostering individuals seeking to be educated, to provide education, or to produce educational materials.

[Bono]

Eventually, I'll want to renumber these sections so as to keep things simple , but for now, so as to keep from reposting all 20 of the earlier sections while keeping a record of what was, let me add three new sections to my proposal as sections 10a, 10b, and 10c.

§ 10a. To promote the Public Health, by the conducting of researches, investigations, experiments, and demonstrations relating to the cause, diagnosis, and treatment of medical disorders and by assisting and fostering such research activities by public and private agencies.

§ 10b. To protect the Public Health and commerce, by providing for the quarantine, vaccination, and treatment of individuals, animals and plants as needed to prevent the spread of contagious diseases.

§ 10c. To promote the distribution of Knowledge of Science and useful Arts, by assisting and fostering individuals seeking to be educated, to provide education, or to produce educational materials.

I have t this the same objections than to the last one. It forces rather than allows the federal government to do something. This still leaves us with the same problem of having nothing to debate, except maybe the dsitributuion of the lootage(income taxes ) .

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I don't see where it forces the Federal government to do anything.  It gives the government power to do certain things, but the only requirements I see in any the 23 sections so far are restrictions on how it may use those granted powers.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Here is the last draft of what I shall propose to the Senate for its adoption.  Save for the aspects of the Death Penalty Abolition Act that required the Regions to abandon the use of capital punishment, I am of the belief that all current Atlasian law and all US law that is Constitutional under the US Constitution would be constitutional under this draft.  Some of these provisions I am not actually in favor of, but I feel that making the Atlasian system different  from what it is under the US system is something that should be done by a deliberate act, not by a back door loophole.

While largely based on Sections 8, 9, and 10 of Article I of the US Constitution, I have looked elsewhere for things worth including.  I even found somthing in the draft European Constitution that at the very least is worth debate by the Senate.  I have also replaced the broad General Welfare clause of Article I Section 8 with a series of specific sections.  Also in some areas of interaction between the government and the people I have explictly made them Federal instead of Regional as for example with the question of marriage. If the Senate has any questions, I shall be prepared to answer themm as best I can.  I will say that I shall vigorously oppose any proposal that does not include my proposed Section 2 Clause 7 or other similar language that makes certain that the Senate does not have carte blanche to do what ever they will with the Regional governments, but only those things they have been explicitly authorized to do by the Constitution.
Powers of the Senate and the Regions Amendment

Section 1 - Powers of the Senate
The Senate shall have the power save where limited by other provisions in the Constitution-
Clause 1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the Regions of Atlasia and the District of Columbia.
Clause 2. To borrow money on the credit of Atlasia and repay such debts.
Clause 3. To regulate commerce with foreign nations.
Clause 4. To provide an area of Freedom, Security and Justice without internal frontiers, and a single market where competition is free and undistorted.
Clause 5. To establish uniform rules of Naturalization and Alienation, Marriage and Divorce, and Adoption and Emancipation of Minors throughout Atlasia.
Clause 6. To establish uniform laws on the subjects of Bankruptcies, Contracts, and Incorporation throughout Atlasia.
Clause 7. To provide for the Punishment of Fraud in a uniform manner throughout Atlasia.
Clause 8. To establish coin and currency, which shall be the sole legal tender of Atlasia, regulate the value thereof, with respect to other coin and currency.
Clause 9. To fix standards of weights and measures and of such items of commerce as it deems needful throughout Atlasia.
Clause 10. To build or regulate the infrastructure needed for communication and transportation.
Clause 11. To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right throughout Atlasia to their respective Writings and Discoveries for limited Times which shall not be extended once secured.
Clause 12. To promote the Public Health, by the conducting of researches, investigations, experiments, and demonstrations relating to the cause, diagnosis, and treatment of medical disorders and by assisting and fostering such research activities by public and private agencies.
Clause 13. To protect the Public Health and commerce, by providing for the quarantine, vaccination, and treatment of individuals, animals and plants as needed to prevent the spread of contagious diseases.
Clause 14. To promote the distribution of Knowledge of Science and useful Arts, by assisting and fostering persons seeking to be educated, to provide education, or to produce educational materials.
Clause 15. To provide for the humanitarian relief of the distress caused by unpredictable events of natural or man-made origin.
Clause 16. to provide for systems of Insurance and Annuity for Unemployment, Disability, and Retirement.
Clause 17. To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court.
Clause 18. To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations.
Clause 19. To provide for the common defense of Atlasia; and to have the sole Power to declare War upon its enemies.
Clause 20. To raise and support armed forces and to make rules for the government and regulation of the armed forces of Atlasia.
Clause 21. To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions.
Clause 22. To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of Atlasia, reserving to the Regions respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.
Clause 23. To exercise exclusive legislation, in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding twelve nautical miles square) as may, by cession of particular Regions, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of Atlasia, and to be known as the District of Columbia.
Clause 24. To exercise exclusive legislation, in all cases whatsoever, over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the Region in which the same shall be, for the provision of military facilities, courthouses, and other needful buildings.
Clause 25. To exercise exclusive legislation, in all cases whatsoever, over such Territory as may be under the jurisdiction of Atlasia, but are not part of any Region.
Clause 26. To assign duties to the Executive Departments and to create such additional Departments as it may deem necessary.
Clause 27. To Suspend the Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus, and to make provision for its Suspension by the executive when the Senate is not in session, but the Privledge shall be Suspended only when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
Clause 28. And to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the powers enumerated in this amendment, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of Atlasia, or in any department or officer thereof.

Section 2 Powers Denied the Senate
Clause 1. No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
Clause 2. No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall vary depending upon the Region of which the Person it be laid against shall live.
Clause 3. No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.
Clause 4. No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one Region over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one Region, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.
Clause 5. No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.
Clause 6. No Title of Nobility shall be granted by Atlasia: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Senate, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
Clause 7. No Law requiring any action to be taken or to be not taken by a Region shall be passed, except to preserve the rights of the Senate or of the People enumerated under the Constitution.

Section 3 Powers Denied the Regions
Clause 1. No Region shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation, save that with the Consent of the Senate they may enter into Agreements or Compacts with other Regions for purposes of handling Specific Issues which affect more than one Region but which do not affect Atlasia as a Whole.
Clause 2. No Region may issue Coin or Currency or make any Coin or Currency other than that of Atlasia a legal tender.
Clause 3. No Region may pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts
Clause 4. No Region may grant any Title of Nobility.
Clause 5. No Region shall, without the Consent of the Senate, lay any Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing its inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties, laid by any Region on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of Atlasia; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Control of the Senate.
Clause 6. No Region shall, without the Consent of the Senate, lay any Duty of Tonnage.
Clause 7. No Region shall, without the Consent of the Senate, maintain Armed Forces in time of Peace.
Clause 8. No Region shall, without the Consent of the Senate, enter into any Agreement or Compact with with a foreign Power.

[Colin]

I like this admendment the best of the three that have been proposed. It is the most through and the best thought out. It clearly enumerates the powers that the Senate and the Regions and it incorporates some things that the American Constitution leaves vague or is non-existant in the American Constitution. I thank Ernest for his hard work.