MLK

[J. J.]

Things like that are some of the reason I support affirmative action in some cases.

Assume that Penn State generally didn't take Black people; they didn't have that policy, but assume that they did.  In 1970, they reverse, but they keep the alumni policy (which has some merit).  Every one who graduated before 1970 was white and there will be a built in preference that perpetuates more white people.  I can understand a 30-50 year affirmative action based on race to make up for that.

It's not unqualified support for quotas and affirmative action, but there is a need in some cases.

Modu, States, I'd love to hear you weigh in on this example.

So, basically you are saying that post 1970, only blacks from new families and whites from alumni families (in general) are being accepted.  Which means, the best qualified applicants (either white or black) probably aren't being accepted due to two separate discriminatory practices.  Therefore, the school is only hurting themselves and potentially the futures of the qualified students they are turning away.  Fast-forward to today... can't see how this is a good thing in the 21st century.

I agree that is hurting itself, but also the applicants.  Fast forwarding it, yes I think to fix that longstanding problem it mike take a program today to still be inplace to fix that.  In 15-30 years, in might not, however.

[MODU]

I agree that is hurting itself, but also the applicants.  Fast forwarding it, yes I think to fix that longstanding problem it mike take a program today to still be inplace to fix that.  In 15-30 years, in might not, however.

The problem is, we don't need it "now."  AA has done its job and now has a negative effect.  It's time to end it and remove all qualification "bonuses" based on skin color.  And while we're at it, it's beyond time people drop the stupid "African American" pc name for black.  Not all blacks come from Africa after all.  Same with the "Non-Hispanic White" category.  All this does is prolong the notion that somehow skin color is important and needs to be addressed.

[J. J.]

I agree that is hurting itself, but also the applicants.  Fast forwarding it, yes I think to fix that longstanding problem it mike take a program today to still be inplace to fix that.  In 15-30 years, in might not, however.

The problem is, we don't need it "now."  AA has done its job and now has a negative effect.  It's time to end it and remove all qualification "bonuses" based on skin color.  And while we're at it, it's beyond time people drop the stupid "African American" pc name for black.  Not all blacks come from Africa after all.  Same with the "Non-Hispanic White" category.  All this does is prolong the notion that somehow skin color is important and needs to be addressed.

I think there are cases were it is needed "now."  There program should be narrowly tailored, however.

[JSojourner]

I agree that is hurting itself, but also the applicants.  Fast forwarding it, yes I think to fix that longstanding problem it mike take a program today to still be inplace to fix that.  In 15-30 years, in might not, however.

The problem is, we don't need it "now."  AA has done its job and now has a negative effect.  It's time to end it and remove all qualification "bonuses" based on skin color.  And while we're at it, it's beyond time people drop the stupid "African American" pc name for black.  Not all blacks come from Africa after all.  Same with the "Non-Hispanic White" category.  All this does is prolong the notion that somehow skin color is important and needs to be addressed.

I think there are cases were it is needed "now."  There program should be narrowly tailored, however.

Mended, not ended?

[J. J.]

I agree that is hurting itself, but also the applicants.  Fast forwarding it, yes I think to fix that longstanding problem it mike take a program today to still be inplace to fix that.  In 15-30 years, in might not, however.

The problem is, we don't need it "now."  AA has done its job and now has a negative effect.  It's time to end it and remove all qualification "bonuses" based on skin color.  And while we're at it, it's beyond time people drop the stupid "African American" pc name for black.  Not all blacks come from Africa after all.  Same with the "Non-Hispanic White" category.  All this does is prolong the notion that somehow skin color is important and needs to be addressed.

I think there are cases were it is needed "now."  There program should be narrowly tailored, however.

Mended, not ended?

Mended overall, ended where no longer necessary.

I know, it doesn't sound too Republican, but I do see a need in some cases.

[MODU]

I think there are cases were it is needed "now." 

Such as?

[J. J.]

I think there are cases were it is needed "now." 

Such as?

In some cases, educational opportunities; if I were talking about some southern colleges, instead of Pennsylvania, the example would be more apparent.  A few that I've been familiar with are such things as fire and police (though that is coming close to the end here in Philadelphia).   Again, it has to be tailored to the situation.

[MODU]

I think there are cases were it is needed "now." 

Such as?

In some cases, educational opportunities; if I were talking about some southern colleges, instead of Pennsylvania, the example would be more apparent.  A few that I've been familiar with are such things as fire and police (though that is coming close to the end here in Philadelphia).   Again, it has to be tailored to the situation.

Who should be granted entrance into college?  Those who are qualified, right?  Skin color has nothing to do with intelligence.  To be a cop or a firefighter?  Skin color has nothing to do with bravery and athleticism.  None of those examples require AA today.  They might require a select few individuals in positions of authority to be educated and/or replaced due to their own personal biases regarding race, but ability is not dependent upon skin color.

[Smash255]

I think there are cases were it is needed "now." 

Such as?

In some cases, educational opportunities; if I were talking about some southern colleges, instead of Pennsylvania, the example would be more apparent.  A few that I've been familiar with are such things as fire and police (though that is coming close to the end here in Philadelphia).   Again, it has to be tailored to the situation.

Who should be granted entrance into college?  Those who are qualified, right?  Skin color has nothing to do with intelligence.  To be a cop or a firefighter?  Skin color has nothing to do with bravery and athleticism.  None of those examples require AA today.  They might require a select few individuals in positions of authority to be educated and/or replaced due to their own personal biases regarding race, but ability is not dependent upon skin color.

However,  what exactly do you base how qualified someone is, just based off test scores & entrance exams??  Would you say a wealthy white kid who scored slightly better than a poor black kid, who had to overcome much stronger odds would be more qualified??

 Even though the white kid may have scored better, the disparity in the opportunities they had growing up were likely vast.  So how does that make the person who scored a little higher more qualified if their was only a slight difference in the scoring, but huge differences in the opportunities they had afforded to them?

[J. J.]

I think there are cases were it is needed "now." 

Such as?

In some cases, educational opportunities; if I were talking about some southern colleges, instead of Pennsylvania, the example would be more apparent.  A few that I've been familiar with are such things as fire and police (though that is coming close to the end here in Philadelphia).   Again, it has to be tailored to the situation.

Who should be granted entrance into college?  Those who are qualified, right?  Skin color has nothing to do with intelligence.  To be a cop or a firefighter?  Skin color has nothing to do with bravery and athleticism.  None of those examples require AA today.  They might require a select few individuals in positions of authority to be educated and/or replaced due to their own personal biases regarding race, but ability is not dependent upon skin color.

I think it is much broader that that, and as I've noted, it is very frequently seen in higher education.

For decades, police and firefighters were limited to Caucasians and were sometimes self perpetuating, i.e. if your father or uncle was a "cop," you could be too, largely do to family connections.  In some cases, it was unionized construction workers.

ZThere will come a point when it will not be an issue, and in some things it isn't today, but there are still examples. 

[Smash255]

I think there are cases were it is needed "now." 

Such as?

In some cases, educational opportunities; if I were talking about some southern colleges, instead of Pennsylvania, the example would be more apparent.  A few that I've been familiar with are such things as fire and police (though that is coming close to the end here in Philadelphia).   Again, it has to be tailored to the situation.

Who should be granted entrance into college?  Those who are qualified, right?  Skin color has nothing to do with intelligence.  To be a cop or a firefighter?  Skin color has nothing to do with bravery and athleticism.  None of those examples require AA today.  They might require a select few individuals in positions of authority to be educated and/or replaced due to their own personal biases regarding race, but ability is not dependent upon skin color.

I think it is much broader that that, and as I've noted, it is very frequently seen in higher education.

For decades, police and firefighters were limited to Caucasians and were sometimes self perpetuating, i.e. if your father or uncle was a "cop," you could be too, largely do to family connections.  In some cases, it was unionized construction workers.

ZThere will come a point when it will not be an issue, and in some things it isn't today, but there are still examples. 

Agreed.  I think it should eventually be moved in more of a class based direction, and possibly in some ways have class consideration now, but until we can say blacks and whites as a whole  have equal opportunities, chances and things to overcome we still need it.  And as much as some people may want to believe your average black person is given the same chances, the same opportunities as your average white person, the simple fact is they aren't.  Better than it was?  No question, but just because the disparity isn't as big as it once was, it doesn't mean we are at that point yet.

[J. J.]

Agreed.  I think it should eventually be moved in more of a class based direction, and possibly in some ways have class consideration now, but until we can say blacks and whites as a whole  have equal opportunities, chances and things to overcome we still need it.  And as much as some people may want to believe your average black person is given the same chances, the same opportunities as your average white person, the simple fact is they aren't.  Better than it was?  No question, but just because the disparity isn't as big as it once was, it doesn't mean we are at that point yet.

First of all, I agree, strongly, on a class based system.

Second, I don't agree entirely on race based affirmative action.  I believe there are some organizations where there has been an equalization and affirmative action is not needed.  I think it should be a tailored approach.  To admit that we've had a terrible problem with race in the past is something most people would agree with.  To say that the effects of that problem exist isn't earth shattering; favoring fixing those effects should be broadly agreed upon.  To say that is being fixed, and has been fixed in some cases, should not be earth shattering either. 

I basically feel that once the problem is fixed, affirmative action should be discontinued.  We are not at that point yet, everywhere.