Firm Leadership on Terror from Kerry

[Spin Police]

Boston Globe: Would (you) have gone to war against Saddam Hussein if he refused to disarm?

John Kerry: “You bet we might have.”

Link

[A18]

YEAH!! I was all for Bush, but now I'm supporting Kerry!

[Blue Rectangle]

It gets better:

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Brilliant...and all this time I thought the terrorists were after financial institutions, ports, nuclear plants, and oil refineries.

If Bush had suggested that terrorists were a threat to suburbia and that a neighborhood watch would help he'd be laughed out of office.

[Defarge]

It gets better:

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Brilliant...and all this time I thought the terrorists were after financial institutions, ports, nuclear plants, and oil refineries.

If Bush had suggested that terrorists were a threat to suburbia and that a neighborhood watch would help he'd be laughed out of office.

I don't understand your objections to this.  Living immediately outside of NYC I would take comfort in neighberhood watch groups that would be able to handle an emergency in the event that regular emergency response teams would be unable to reach us.  Not to mention that such watch groups could potentially help in rooting out terrorist sleeper cells.  Imagine if such a group had been in Buffalo, we would have caught the bastards sooner.  Terrorists don't just attack using hijacked planes, they live among us, the cells in Buffalo and Albany being examples.

American vigilance should not just be present in the military and the CIA, it should be present in the home as well.  This war will not just be won in the mountains of Afghanistan, but in the streets of New York.  Neighberhood watch groups could prove to be extremely valuable both in detecting terrorists and, in the event of a catastrophic attack, providing leadership for portions of the population cut off from the government.

[khirkhib]

Neighberhood Watch Groups  also help unite and organize communities.  They could be useful not just in the war on terror but they would organize the communities in case of natural disasters and help build a sense of community which is so lacking in much of suburbia.  I think it would empower people to.  What  I've heard from people in New York about the Terror Alerts is don't tell us the alert level is Orange if you don't tell us what to do.  The alert level does nothing if people don't know how to respond to it.  The administration says to go about your business whiloe scaring you.  At least organizing in community watch groups would give people something productive to do and let them create a response plan.

[Floridude]

neighborhood watch groups cant hurt, and may also prevent crime as a by product.  That statement wasnt bad.

The first sounded liked a waffle though.

[agcatter]

<you bet we might have>

lol

[MarkDel]

Defarge and KHirkhib,

I would be all for Neighborhood Watch programs. Unfortunately, if they were really put into effect, IT WOULD BE YOU AND OTHERS LIKE YOU WHO WOULD OPPOSE THEM! Why? Because Liberals would start to whine and cry about how the neigborhood watch was really nothing more than Vigilante Racial Profiling. And the first time that a citizen warned the police of something suspicious that turned out to be nothing, Liberals would be screaming and moaning about Civil Rights violations and discrimination against Muslims, etc, etc...

You KNOW I'm right about this too...

[Defarge]

Defarge and KHirkhib,

I would be all for Neighborhood Watch programs. Unfortunately, if they were really put into effect, IT WOULD BE YOU AND OTHERS LIKE YOU WHO WOULD OPPOSE THEM! Why? Because Liberals would start to whine and cry about how the neigborhood watch was really nothing more than Vigilante Racial Profiling. And the first time that a citizen warned the police of something suspicious that turned out to be nothing, Liberals would be screaming and moaning about Civil Rights violations and discrimination against Muslims, etc, etc...

You KNOW I'm right about this too...

Since when did Republicans base their opinions on the imagined future reactions of the extreme left?  After all, you've been ignoring them and the rest of the left for the last 3 years

[The Duke]

Neighborhood Watch Groups are a good idea, but they are not the core of a successful terrorism policy.  They're a very marginal help.

[khirkhib]

MarkDel I seriously hate it when you put words in my mouth.  You have this whole prototypical Liberal in your mind and you  stereotype their ideas, needs/wants, and soul.  You have no idea who I am and I have to think that  reason why you use these stupid stereotypes is to frame your world and belittle others.

I just got back from serving three years as a Peace Corps Volunteer in the Dominican Republic and one of the amazing things that I observed there, in the poor agricultural community that I lived in, was the strong sense of community and mutual protection.  Even those on the fring of their own society the mentally unstable, the widows are well taken care of.  The society deffinately has it share of problems rascism and abuse towards Haitians and machismo and sexual intimidation towards woman (although despite blatant sexism in the culture they did have a female VP before the US).

Back to the topic, I think that it is important that neighbors know each other and take care of each other.  No I do not want neighbors spying on each other or being informants to Homeland Security.  I do not want spies entering Peace Groups but I do want communities to come together.  I think that they could develop plans to take care of each other in the event of a terror event or a natural disaster outside of waiting for federal relief, I think that neighbors should report criminal activity taking part in their community, and true their is a fine line in reporting suspecious activity but police can investiage things and be aware of what is going on with out harrassment.  I think most important though it would give people something to do with the energy that fear creates instead of buying duct tape and watching tv.

[Blue Rectangle]

It gets better:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Brilliant...and all this time I thought the terrorists were after financial institutions, ports, nuclear plants, and oil refineries.

If Bush had suggested that terrorists were a threat to suburbia and that a neighborhood watch would help he'd be laughed out of office.

I don't understand your objections to this.  Living immediately outside of NYC I would take comfort in neighberhood watch groups that would be able to handle an emergency in the event that regular emergency response teams would be unable to reach us.  Not to mention that such watch groups could potentially help in rooting out terrorist sleeper cells.  Imagine if such a group had been in Buffalo, we would have caught the bastards sooner.  Terrorists don't just attack using hijacked planes, they live among us, the cells in Buffalo and Albany being examples.

American vigilance should not just be present in the military and the CIA, it should be present in the home as well.  This war will not just be won in the mountains of Afghanistan, but in the streets of New York.  Neighberhood watch groups could prove to be extremely valuable both in detecting terrorists and, in the event of a catastrophic attack, providing leadership for portions of the population cut off from the government.

Don't get me wrong, I think Neighborhood Watch groups are great, as are disaster preparedness groups.  I just find it a bit ironic that those who have criticized the alerts for being too numerous (thus reducing readiness) and too vague (as Kerry did later in the same speech) now think that a general order to be on the lookout for suspicious activity everywhere at all times is a good idea.

Since when did Republicans base their opinions on the imagined future reactions of the extreme left?

Sadly, this reaction is not imagined.  When Ashcroft suggested a couple years ago that plumbers, delivery people, etc. could keep a lookout for suspicious activities, the op/ed pages exploded with comparisons to Stalinist Russia, East Germany, and other hyperbolic examples.

[A18]

Anything like 'neighborhood watch groups' should be done on the local level. The federal government doesn't need more influence.

[MarkDel]

Defarge and KHirkhib,

I would be all for Neighborhood Watch programs. Unfortunately, if they were really put into effect, IT WOULD BE YOU AND OTHERS LIKE YOU WHO WOULD OPPOSE THEM! Why? Because Liberals would start to whine and cry about how the neigborhood watch was really nothing more than Vigilante Racial Profiling. And the first time that a citizen warned the police of something suspicious that turned out to be nothing, Liberals would be screaming and moaning about Civil Rights violations and discrimination against Muslims, etc, etc...

You KNOW I'm right about this too...

Since when did Republicans base their opinions on the imagined future reactions of the extreme left?  After all, you've been ignoring them and the rest of the left for the last 3 years

Yes, but am I right? That WOULD be your reaction, would it not?

[MarkDel]

MarkDel I seriously hate it when you put words in my mouth.  You have this whole prototypical Liberal in your mind and you  stereotype their ideas, needs/wants, and soul.  You have no idea who I am and I have to think that  reason why you use these stupid stereotypes is to frame your world and belittle others.

I just got back from serving three years as a Peace Corps Volunteer in the Dominican Republic and one of the amazing things that I observed there, in the poor agricultural community that I lived in, was the strong sense of community and mutual protection.  Even those on the fring of their own society the mentally unstable, the widows are well taken care of.  The society deffinately has it share of problems rascism and abuse towards Haitians and machismo and sexual intimidation towards woman (although despite blatant sexism in the culture they did have a female VP before the US).

Back to the topic, I think that it is important that neighbors know each other and take care of each other.  No I do not want neighbors spying on each other or being informants to Homeland Security.  I do not want spies entering Peace Groups but I do want communities to come together.  I think that they could develop plans to take care of each other in the event of a terror event or a natural disaster outside of waiting for federal relief, I think that neighbors should report criminal activity taking part in their community, and true their is a fine line in reporting suspecious activity but police can investiage things and be aware of what is going on with out harrassment.  I think most important though it would give people something to do with the energy that fear creates instead of buying duct tape and watching tv.

My statement is based on the way Liberals have reacted to the Patriot Act and other Government behavior in the post 9/11 world. If liberals won't tolerate government (think of your side's reaction to Ashcroft) participating in aggressive law enforcement, then why in god's name would I expect them to react any differently to citizens being involved in aggressive law enforcement???

My putting words in your mouth? Here's an analogy for you. If a Duck walks into a room and says "Quack" every day for four years, you begin to have a pretty good idea what he might say the next time he walks though the door. And when a DIFFERENT Duck walks through the door, you can't be certain, but you are pretty damned sure that the first words out of his mouth will also be "QUACK"

Get it?

[Gabu]

I don't want to sound like a troll, but you seem to be ignoring what those two actually said in lieu of simply pasting a stereotype onto them.  If you're talking about a group as a whole, and in general, not as an attempt to define every single member, then doing so _might_ be appropriate, but when you're talking directly to a specific person it's not going to be very productive.  Being a member of a certain political party or having a certain ideology might give some sort of an idea of how a person's general value system is structured, but it in no way defines that person's entire life.

If you want a case in point, look no further than Democratic Sen. Zell Miller.

[khirkhib]

So you're calling me a duck now? What the hel!. I'm with Phillip on this one let community groups organize themselves they don't need feredal spies going through or have informants  Having communities even knew each other is a major step, being aware of what is going on in your community and give the community members the tools to let them know what they can do.  Empower people don't just scare them.  Put out a little brochure of what they can do as a community to prepare for a natural disaster, prevent crime and stop terrorism (I think the groups should have multiple functions because on a per community basis they are more likely to deal with thing other than terrorism but give them the tools.)   The federal government could supply the funding or materials, or create a network that helps establish this group and if the community knows the procedures and who to contact in case of a percieved threat than you have made everybody safer.  What the government really should be doing (which they are not) is protecting our ports and inspecting what comes into this country a little bit better, I'm not saying everything but it wouldn't hurt if they had a procedure that inspected a little bit more than .5% of cargo that comes in through ports.  The government should keep better track of passports and who comes in to the country.  The governement should better monitor our borders and our coasts.  I can't say I know much about the Patriot Act.  I know that it was first put together by democrats and Bush was, at first, against it.  I know that very few congressman read it before they voted on it and I'm sure that it has some questionable and perhaps unconstitutional consiquences but Hey that's why we have the court system, right.

[classical liberal]

Khirkhib and MarkDel-

The negativity coming off of both of you is unfounded.  Both of you are intelligent and can logically derive your views from basic principals which only differ in that Khirkhib is optimistic about human nature and MarkDel is realistic about human nature.  Mark's reactioon to "Liberals" is as human a reaction as one can expect from a human.  Khirkhib, you are not the garden variety liberal; Mark was expressing a true sentiment in his statement, that garden variety liberals would hate the idea of groups based solely on hacks and their talking points, though you yourself may differ from them.  Neither of you need to get nasty about it.

That said, if Ashcroft had come out with the delivery guys reporting suspicious activity as an aspect of a policy that involves "everyone helping out" then there would probably have not been a problem from the liberals.  Instead, he instead vocalized the concept that the people would be government spies; a concept too Orwellian for the mainstream populace.