246-182: Surge Plan rejected by House

[Democratic Hawk]

Rather than being terrorists, the Coalition forces have played two roles: firstly, they were liberators; while now, they are peacekeepers. The sooner Iraq is stable, whereby the legitimately, and democratically, elected Iraqi government is in a position to take responsiblity for Iraq's security, the sooner they can come home . I want that as much as anybody else, and sooner rather than later

You mean the theocratic, fascist, death squad running, terrorist containing Iraqi government?

Yes, I'm sure there are aspects of the Iraqi government that are far from ideal. Though the Iraqi Constitution, on first glance, seems to be rather enlightened for an Islamic country

I often wonder if the tenets of liberal democracy are compatible with those of Islam and, indeed, a criticism of the neo-conservative approach is their failure to grasp that

Being an idealist, I'm interested in how things should be rather than how things are but I'm under no illusion that, in Iraq, liberal democracy is something that can be achieved overnight. In fact, the march towards political liberalization will be a very long one and it will encounter problems along the way. But the world will surely be a better place once its complete. Be positive, be optimistic, and fight the good fight

Of course, a stick-and-carrot approach to free trade, as a means of encouraging this, is way preferable to democracy being imposed though the 'barrel of a gun'.

Dave

[angus]

I agree with academics who argue that elites often shape public opinion. If Congress stands up and says X and does X, then public opinion will move in that direction. The public is watching our leaders. But if our leaders are watching the public, then each side is watching the other for direction.

...but neither does [the constitution] include many other things which are taken for granted today (on the other hand, we haven't had a militia for centuries).

I think that's right.  Elites shape public opinion, and as a corollary, many things are around today that might have seemed bizarre to constitutional convention.  Normally, things that are taken for granted now were unpopular ideas at the time of their initiation.  Income taxes, for example.  Also, ideas get floated about decades before they're implemented.  Some president will hoist an idea up the flagpole in the 50s, everyone balks, but by the 80s the idea has been out there so long that people begin to take it seriously and discuss it.  And eventually congress passes a law and people just think the law has been around forever.  That's all they know now, and no one can remember a time when it was a controversial or "bad" idea.  This is precisely why so many people were keen on defining marriage, for example, between one man and one woman, and in some states it has become part of the state constitution. 

Nationbuilding is like that.  Bush ran, in part, on a campaign of not wanting to do nationbuilding, and convinced us that if we elected Gore we'd be part of some humanitarian war somewhere.  And his advisors were probably right.  Probably we would have.  It likely wouldn't have been in a post-Saddam Iraq, but we'd have been committed somewhere.  And who's to say whether it would have been more expensive or less expensive than the ones we're in.  Doesn't matter, at this point, anyway.  Imagining how the wavefunction collapses in alternate versions of the universe is pointless, since we don't have access to the operator that allows for a transition to that other universe.  What matters is that the candidate who was so keen on not getting us into nationbuilding has become the president who is determined to build a nation at US taxpayer cost.

I think the anti-war folks were taken aback that Bush didn't "stay the course" or perhaps admit defeat in the wake of the report.  Those were really the two options that (mostly democrat) detractors thought he had.  He surprised everyone with the surge.  And it's a clever gambit.  Politically it's safe, because in ten years folks won't hold it against him that he made one last try for victory.  Moreover, many of those folks clamoring against the war now were for it initially.  So it's hard to say, well, I'm okay with 140 thousand US men and women there, but not with 160 thousand.  People think you're hedging, or lying, or confused.

I only disagree on the fine point when people assume congress has no power to stop the surge.  It hasn't the spine to use its authority, maybe, but it has authority.

It also has lots of serious, important work to do, so even if they're all pussies who don't want to deal with Iraq, they could at least have the decency to try to deal with the many important issues facing the nation rather than wasting everyone's time with meaningless grandstanding.  I also want to be clear that I'm disappointed in both the pro-war and anti-war types, since there were many in both camps who made time to give this meaningless resolution the appearance of legitimacy, only so they can say, in some future campaign, that "I voted for..." or "I voted against..." something. 

[Beet]

I agree with academics who argue that elites often shape public opinion. If Congress stands up and says X and does X, then public opinion will move in that direction. The public is watching our leaders. But if our leaders are watching the public, then each side is watching the other for direction.

...but neither does [the constitution] include many other things which are taken for granted today (on the other hand, we haven't had a militia for centuries).

I think that's right.  Elites shape public opinion, and as a corollary, many things are around today that might have seemed bizarre to constitutional convention.  Normally, things that are taken for granted now were unpopular ideas at the time of their initiation.  Income taxes, for example.  Also, ideas get floated about decades before they're implemented.  Some president will hoist an idea up the flagpole in the 50s, everyone balks, but by the 80s the idea has been out there so long that people begin to take it seriously and discuss it.  And eventually congress passes a law and people just think the law has been around forever.  That's all they know now, and no one can remember a time when it was a controversial or "bad" idea.  This is precisely why so many people were keen on defining marriage, for example, between one man and one woman, and in some states it has become part of the state constitution. 

Nationbuilding is like that.  Bush ran, in part, on a campaign of not wanting to do nationbuilding, and convinced us that if we elected Gore we'd be part of some humanitarian war somewhere.  And his advisors were probably right.  Probably we would have.  It likely wouldn't have been in a post-Saddam Iraq, but we'd have been committed somewhere.  And who's to say whether it would have been more expensive or less expensive than the ones we're in.  Doesn't matter, at this point, anyway.  Imagining how the wavefunction collapses in alternate versions of the universe is pointless, since we don't have access to the operator that allows for a transition to that other universe.  What matters is that the candidate who was so keen on not getting us into nationbuilding has become the president who is determined to build a nation at US taxpayer cost.

I think Gore would have sent more troops into Afghanistan, but no, I don't think it would have turned out as badly as some think. We may have netted bin Laden in Tora Bora in December 2001. Gore would have possibly focused more pressure on the UN to move into Darfur, but I don't think there would be a substantial US commitment there.

It could certainly be argued that nation-building has the potential to be a moderating force in the Middle East. The more stable, moderate governments there are in the region, the more the US can rely on those governments to fight terrorism and keep extremists at the margins, rather than being forced to go in ourselves or face unacceptable threats. That strategy has not been as bad as some neocons like to argue it is. US policy with Egypt, for example, has been a remarkable success. Not only has it been at peace with Israel for nearly three decades now after four major wars in the three preceding decades; not only are radical forces in that country contained; but after the Luxor terror attacks in 1997 public opinion shifted decisively against the radicals.

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Well Bush has unfortunately painted himself into a corner. Yeah the "surge" looks like a bold move, but considering that it comes so soon after the elections along with the firing of Rumsfeld it's hard to pass it off as any other than a desperate reaction to the election, even if it is a counter-intuitive one.

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The tussles and inefficiencies of democracy. If all citizens were like you angus then certainly we could be spared some of that.

[angus]

ouch.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Wow, look at what the lunatics at RedState have to say about the 17 Republicans who decided to not warmonger here.

Garbage like:

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It's filled with bible quotes from those who don't understand the bible.

http://www.redstate.com/blogs/boobookitty/2007/feb/18/seventeen_pieces_of_silver

And since RedState is a dying site, the diary on DailyKos about the RedState diary has 4 times as many comments:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/2/19/65722/1277

[MODU]

A small victory against the militant right wing warmongering terrorist scum.

To bad what really needs to happen is that those 182 need to be shipped off along w/ a good portion of this forum to fight their war.  But of course not cause there are only two options for these chickenhawk coward terrorists.  They either alltogether avoid service or they hide in the national guard or on a ship in complete safety pretending they actually in Combat.  Right MODU?  Hide on a boat and pretend you saw combat just so you can be pretend you're not a total chickenhawk coward?

While you sit comfortably here in the US complaining to high heaven about our government and what they do, why don't you take time and think about what you are saying.  After all, "hiding" on a boat isn't as easy as you hiding behind your computer.  I have a closet full of old uniforms here that you are more than welcome to try on.  Just make sure you polish my shoes after you attempt to fill them.  Now, are you done with your personal attacks, or should I wait for more?

[Deano963]

Wow, look at what the lunatics at RedState have to say about the 17 Republicans who decided to not warmonger here.

Your obsession with that site is unhealthy.