Opinion of emotionally blackmailing someone by threatening suicide if you don’t get what you want?

[VBM]

Obviously horrible practice.

[Ferguson97]

You are an actual piece of garbage for framing forcible de-transitioning of transgender people this way.

[President Johnson]

HP (sane)

Someone who does that needs help.

[Trans Rights Are Human Rights]

Bad, but a transgender teenager killing themselves after being forcibly detransitioned is not an example of this.

[Dani Rose]

Can't quite express my instant regret that I voted in this thing before I knew the context behind it.

May God deliver you from your cruelty, friend.

[VBM]

You are an actual piece of garbage for framing forcible de-transitioning of transgender people this way.

What the actual f**k are you talking about? When did I ever say anything about forcibly detransitioning trans kids?

[bagelman]

I don't think this thread is acceptable.

[Mr. Reactionary]

I don't think this thread is acceptable.

Because your position is overwhelmingly losing.

[bagelman]

I don't think this thread is acceptable.

Because your position is overwhelmingly losing.

I don't think a thread with a title of "opinion of objectively bad thing" is acceptable. I have not bothered to discern the context behind this thread because I didn't think it's relevant. Probably an argument best hosted on another thread.

[Ferguson97]

You are an actual piece of garbage for framing forcible de-transitioning of transgender people this way.

What the actual f**k are you talking about? When did I ever say anything about forcibly detransitioning trans kids?

You support the Florida ban.

[VBM]

You are an actual piece of garbage for framing forcible de-transitioning of transgender people this way.

What the actual f**k are you talking about? When did I ever say anything about forcibly detransitioning trans kids?

You support the Florida ban.

I support banning young kids from medically transitioning, but I don’t support forcibly detransitioning teens that have already transitioned. I never made any comment about detransitioning in that thread. A certain poster said “This is tantamount to genocide,” and I thought that was a really dumb argument. Trans people have agency. No one is forcing trans kids to kill themselves just because they might have a wait a few more years to medically transition.

[Ferguson97]

You are an actual piece of garbage for framing forcible de-transitioning of transgender people this way.

What the actual f**k are you talking about? When did I ever say anything about forcibly detransitioning trans kids?

You support the Florida ban.

I support banning young kids from medically transitioning, but I don’t support forcibly detransitioning teens that have already transitioned.

Okay so what should happen to kids currently taking HRT? If they're currently in the process of transitioning, forcing them to stop taking HRT is de-transitioning.

[VBM]

You are an actual piece of garbage for framing forcible de-transitioning of transgender people this way.

What the actual f**k are you talking about? When did I ever say anything about forcibly detransitioning trans kids?

You support the Florida ban.

I support banning young kids from medically transitioning, but I don’t support forcibly detransitioning teens that have already transitioned.

Okay so what should happen to kids currently taking HRT? If they're currently in the process of transitioning, forcing them to stop taking HRT is de-transitioning.

I think that there should be a grandfather clause to allow those already in the process of taking HRT to keep on taking it.

[Trans Rights Are Human Rights]

I think that there should be a grandfather clause to allow those already in the process of taking HRT to keep on taking it.

Why? Either it's unsafe or it's not. Either they're too young to know who they are or they're not. You can't have it both ways just because you want to save face on Talk Elections Dot Org.

[VBM]

I think that there should be a grandfather clause to allow those already in the process of taking HRT to keep on taking it.

Why? Either it's unsafe or it's not. Either they're too young to know who they are or they're not. You can't have it both ways just because you want to save face on Talk Elections Dot Org.

If they’ve already been on HRT for a while, than the “damage” (for lack of a better word) has already been done.

[Trans Rights Are Human Rights]

I think that there should be a grandfather clause to allow those already in the process of taking HRT to keep on taking it.

Why? Either it's unsafe or it's not. Either they're too young to know who they are or they're not. You can't have it both ways just because you want to save face on Talk Elections Dot Org.

If they’ve already been on HRT for a while, than the “damage” (for lack of a better word) has already been done.

How long is "a while"? Would I have qualified if North Carolina passed a ban on teenagers transitioning the day after I started hormones?

[VBM]

I think that there should be a grandfather clause to allow those already in the process of taking HRT to keep on taking it.

Why? Either it's unsafe or it's not. Either they're too young to know who they are or they're not. You can't have it both ways just because you want to save face on Talk Elections Dot Org.

If they’ve already been on HRT for a while, than the “damage” (for lack of a better word) has already been done.

How long is "a while"? Would I have qualified if North Carolina passed a ban on teenagers transitioning the day after I started hormones?

More research would have to be done to determine what a good cutoff would be

[Alben Barkley]

As I’ve said before, this behavior is typical of certain mental disorders such as borderline personality disorder, yet I don’t see anyone argue that in those cases the mentally ill person should be appeased by giving them everything they want no matter how unreasonable. It just incentivizes/rewards the unhealthy behavior and encourages more suicide threats. Instead the correct way to handle this is to get the person help; ideally with help they can learn to avoid resorting to such drastic extremes and handle their emotions in a healthier way. And if not, you still can’t give in; the line has to be drawn somewhere. Most people I think can agree with this.

Seems the usual rules don’t apply to anything trans-related though. Impossible to explain otherwise why everyone here reflexively recognizes this as horrible practice, but seemingly makes an exception for when trans-identified people do it? No one is actually defending this behavior on its own merits after all, just calling people who point it out transphobic and such. Just like few people can seem to actually justify biological males competing with biological females in sports, they just call you transphobic for pointing it out. Seems “transphobic” is used as some sort of instant “I win” card that’s impossible to rationally argue against. Very convenient.

And no the fact that some of the people we’re talking about here are teenagers doesn’t change the equation. If anything teens are the most likely people to do this outside of those with diagnosable disorders like BPD. You wouldn’t buy a 16 year old an expensive car because they threaten to kill themselves if they don’t get one. But again, the moment the trans card is played, all the ordinary rules seem to go out the window.

Never mind that teens’ brains are far from fully developed and that gender dysphoria is very often correlated to other mental disorders and could well be a phase/fad in teens in many cases these days (see ROGD). No, apparently in this specific instance you have to give teens experimental, life-altering drugs being banned for this use in other advanced nations, if not allow them to permanently alter their bodies with surgery, lest you be called “transphobic.”

At a certain point, you have to wonder if maybe being called “transphobic” isn’t the worst thing in the world given the increasingly outrageous demands being made by the people most likely to throw the word around.

[John Dule]

As I’ve said before, this behavior is typical of certain mental disorders such as borderline personality disorder, yet I don’t see anyone argue that in those cases the mentally ill person should be appeased by giving them everything they want no matter how unreasonable. It just incentivizes/rewards the unhealthy behavior and encourages more suicide threats. Instead the correct way to handle this is to get the person help; ideally with help they can learn to avoid resorting to such drastic extremes and handle their emotions in a healthier way. And if not, you still can’t give in; the line has to be drawn somewhere. Most people I think can agree with this.

Seems the usual rules don’t apply to anything trans-related though. Impossible to explain otherwise why everyone here reflexively recognizes this as horrible practice, but seemingly makes an exception for when trans-identified people do it? No one is actually defending this behavior on its own merits after all, just calling people who point it out transphobic and such. Just like few people can seem to actually justify biological males competing with biological females in sports, they just call you transphobic for pointing it out. Seems “transphobic” is used as some sort of instant “I win” card that’s impossible to rationally argue against. Very convenient.

And no the fact that some of the people we’re talking about here are teenagers doesn’t change the equation. If anything teens are the most likely people to do this outside of those with diagnosable disorders like BPD. You wouldn’t buy a 16 year old an expensive car because they threaten to kill themselves if they don’t get one. But again, the moment the trans card is played, all the ordinary rules seem to go out the window.

Never mind that teens’ brains are far from fully developed and that gender dysphoria is very often correlated to other mental disorders and could well be a phase/fad in teens in many cases these days (see ROGD). No, apparently in this specific instance you have to give teens experimental, life-altering drugs being banned for this use in other advanced nations, if not allow them to permanently alter their bodies with surgery, lest you be called “transphobic.”

At a certain point, you have to wonder if maybe being called “transphobic” isn’t the worst thing in the world given the increasingly outrageous demands being made by the people most likely to throw the word around.

I think that the "rules don't apply" point is better made with a comparison to other mental disorders that induce the sufferer to cut off functional parts of his body. Nobody that I know of thinks that people suffering from Body Integrity Dysphoria should be allowed to lop off their fingers, hands, or legs without first seeking therapy. Yet somehow if someone wants to remove their genitals or breasts, they are treated with automatic deference by an unfortunately large number of left-wingers and medical professionals.

But if you think gender dysphoria is a mental illness (which it pretty clearly is), then you have to have some sympathy for the people experiencing it, and I don't think comparing them to "a brat throwing a temper tantrum" is really productive. I have talked to many trans people on this site, and I never got the impression that any of them are faking their deep-seated self-image problems and depression just for the purpose of guilting others into getting what they want. Clearly, there is some limit at which others should intervene to prevent mentally ill people from making decisions for themselves (suicidal people, for example, or the aforementioned BID). The question should be where we draw that line and how age factors into the equation. I still believe that when it comes to consenting adults suffering from gender dysphoria, they should be allowed to make their own decisions.

[Alben Barkley]

I think that the "rules don't apply" point is better made with a comparison to other mental disorders that induce the sufferer to cut off functional parts of his body. Nobody that I know of thinks that people suffering from Body Integrity Dysphoria should be allowed to lop off their fingers, hands, or legs without first seeking therapy. Yet somehow if someone wants to remove their genitals or breasts, they are treated with automatic deference by an unfortunately large number of left-wingers and medical professionals.

But if you think gender dysphoria is a mental illness (which it pretty clearly is), then you have to have some sympathy for the people experiencing it, and I don't think comparing them to "a brat throwing a temper tantrum" is really productive. I have talked to many trans people on this site, and I never got the impression that any of them are faking their deep-seated self-image problems and depression just for the purpose of guilting others into getting what they want. Clearly, there is some limit at which others should intervene to prevent mentally ill people from making decisions for themselves (suicidal people, for example, or the aforementioned BID). The question should be where we draw that line and how age factors into the equation. I still believe that when it comes to consenting adults suffering from gender dysphoria, they should be allowed to make their own decisions.

Oh I agree with you completely. I still think gender dysphoria is a real (but rare) condition, to be sure, and that in some (adult) cases, medical intervention may be the best treatment. I just don’t necessarily think it should be the first line of treatment automatically assumed to be the best or only way to relieve the dysphoria. BID is a great example as to why. I’m also not saying they’re faking it or are tantamount to brats throwing a tantrum. BPD and other conditions that make people suicidal are also very real sources of emotional pain, trauma, and extreme discomfort. All of these people should be treated with compassion.

But teenage years especially are a confusing time. Emotions and hormones are swirling, kids haven’t figured themselves out yet and their brains are in the painful process of developing. That deserves to be treated with compassion as well. But just like you wouldn’t let an anorexic teenager starve themselves or self-harm, you probably shouldn’t just give a teen who claims to be trans free access to life-altering experimental medical treatment. Certainly not without first figuring out if something else may be going on, especially given the exponential growth of trans-identifying teens in recent years.

Something just doesn’t add up to make this likely to be an entirely natural phenomenon. As I’ve said before, I have a feeling there’s gonna be a bunch of lawsuits coming a few years down the line alongside a lot of regret. Hope I’m wrong but doubt it.

[parochial boy]

I mean gender dysphoria is real and the only effective treatment for it is transition. This isn't even a point that is up for debate on it such the overwhelming evidence to back this up.

There is perhaps a point - very specifically - that you can make about assigned female at birth preteens identifying as trans as they approach puberty that might be related to the fact that girls generally have a much more negative experience of the onset of puberty that boys do. Except even here, this isn't a consensus viewpoint and evidence can and has been put forward that suggest both that and the inverse is true.

All you can do here is admit that there is a need for further research and then be very careful about diagnosing gender dysphoria for people who might fall into the category. What this absolutely does nor mean however, is that you should categorically ban children from transitioning. Because we know that there are trans children and we know with 100% certainty that preventing them from transitioning will lead to psychological distress and, yes, could be deadly.

Forcing children to detransition eventually amounts to what it is - abusing and harming children for the purposes of fuelling a moral and political outrage and even if you do want to err towards caution on the issue of diagnosing gender dysphoria it is still the worst possible "solution" precisely because it is done fully with the understanding and the intention of hurting people.

[Trans Rights Are Human Rights]

the exponential growth of trans-identifying teens in recent years.

Something something left-handedness.

[VBM]

the exponential growth of trans-identifying teens in recent years.

Something something left-handedness.

The problem with the left-handedness comparison is that left-handedness only increased from 5% to 10% of the population, while LGBT identification has increased by over 10 times, so we’re talking about a much more drastic change. Additionally, someone who was born with an inclination towards being left handed can pretty easily be trained to become right handed at a young age, but according to many trans activists, being trans is something that you are 100% born with and your environment and upbringing supposedly have absolutely no impact on your gender identity. This is a pretty ridiculous argument since trans activists also say that gender is a social construct (and just to be clear, I do agree with this), meaning that you gender identity is automatically influenced by society since society is the one defining what a gender is. The reality is probably that both genetics and your upbringing influence your trans identity, rather than it being purely genetic

[John Dule]

the exponential growth of trans-identifying teens in recent years.

Something something left-handedness.

Something something ADHD overdiagnosis

[Schiff for Senate]

Obvious HP practice, and they'll continue getting whatever they want out of you unless you call their bluff and dare them to go through with their dare the first time they try it.

Obviously, by this I mean people who actually threaten suicide unless they get their way, not people who are depressed and can't take life anymore. Like if a depressed transgender commits suicide because of some anti-trans law in their state, that's not them "threatening" anything. But if you've got, say, somebody who says "I'll kill myself unless you do this", or "I'll kill myself unless you give me that," or anything of that sort, then the correct solution is either to tell them to get help, or to call their bluff and demonstrate that they were just lying through their teeth to get what they want.