European gas prices nine times higher now than in USA
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  European gas prices nine times higher now than in USA
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Author Topic: European gas prices nine times higher now than in USA  (Read 1940 times)
LAKISYLVANIA
Lakigigar
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« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2022, 07:38:18 PM »
« edited: August 30, 2022, 07:41:49 PM by Laki »

Thank you the greens and their anti nuclear policy

Nuclear power doesn't even emit carbon dioxide. It's literally the greenest realistic option, and somehow the greens think it's worse than gas.

It's also absolutely moronic to be this dependant on energy resources from different countries, especially one a large part of Europe saw as an enemy. It explains Orban's response, Hungary is for 50% dependant on Russian gas. It's just so naive, and now we pay the price literally.

Greens likely will hit a new bottom in upcoming elections in Europe, i can imagine, almost everywhere.

Some part of your energy needs to be nationalized. I don't believe it should be privatized, just like healthcare and education should also not be. It isn't a good idea to be dependant on few nations or few energy sources, but to spread those out, similarly to the economy.
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Zinneke
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« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2022, 02:03:51 AM »

Where in Red Velvet's post is he fundementally wrong though? We Europeans were warned that it would come to this and more to the point we failed to see the long game in favour of cheap Russian gas (rather than seeing cheap Russian gas as an opportunity to invest in longer term solutions).

There was enough time and resources to produce more nuclear power stations, not shut them down, but the Green movement, infiltrated by Gazprom and the FSB, made it their "black ball" issue in many countries. A lot of these Green movements were founded by flower power people who conflated nuclear power with nuclear weapons and because they became maintstream and climate is a very serious issue, as is environmental protection, air quality, etc. It's why I and so many others voted Green.

Renewable net zero will take a massive structural effort and another 10 years of economic depression. It requires mobilizing a war capacity effort that Europe does not have because of neo-liberalism and cost cutting in public policy circles being seen as efficient, good governance (see also, pandemic preparedness). My generation already had to contend with a drop in living standards due to 2008 and Covid, it's now being faced with a massive drop in order to satisfy net zero targets while India and China hide behind the "we're underdeveloped and definitely not colonialist" card to pollute massively. To top it all off, the migration question is being instrumentalised well by a far right to blow the dog whistle as Europe will have to genuinely contend with the issue of housing climate refugees all because their favorite footballers on instagram live the high life, and this coupled with its energy transition will have to again take a massive state capacity effort that our current modern state is simply not prepared for.

Expect a whole host of little dictators with mustaches to pop up unless we, the sane democratic Left, admit we have to make some Faustian pacts on things like net zero by 2035. The far right will dismantle the European project and start the old revisionist border disputes to hide their glaring incompetence. At that point I'll be trying by any means necessary to leave for Greenland.

With respect (and genuinely so, you are one poster here whose contributions I always read properly) you are very good at saying what "can't" be done - but what *can* be done?

So the "sane left" should jettison net zero - to what end exactly, and with what reward?? And given that you aren't a climate change denier, how should the fundamental underlying reason for having it as a policy be dealt with instead?

In the short term I cannot see anything other than rationing some energy uses, but also doing some things that may upset the ecologist movement, like opening coal plants again, re-opening the Groningen gas plant (compensating the citizens around there with Russian-owned mansions) and basically boosting industrial production as long as the latter has a net return on the overall goal of being self-sufficient. I don’t believe there is any reasoning as to why Europe should make the most efforts while Asia and Africa continue to also have unsustainable lifestyles despite efforts to frame us as the root of all problems. And that’s not even counting North America who take the piss with their Hummers and aircon.

I’d like the people who are paying negative energy bills for installing solar panels that were created with Uyghur slave labour and have 2 cars in the driveway to be taxed more than city dwellers. I’d also say that anyone who enters a car must prove they have done a certain amount of kilometers or be taxed to death. Other half-measures can include :

Less football matches under floodlights, less activities overall under floodlights. Probably shutting down private swimming pools too.
Banning private jets
Trying to move digital based workers to hotter climates in the winter period (free train tickets, empty holiday homes must be occupied kind of thing)
Investing in smart AI tech to regulate when lights come on and off
Moving several non-essential industrial sectors to work on energy production sectors

I mention the first because I am acutely aware that my favorite hobbies will be impacted but I can already predict that just as with Covid every single sector will try to lobby the government to have exemptions and in the end it will be who has the biggest lobby machine rather than some genuine prioritization based on what we really need. That needs to come to an end.

I also think that for example limitations on red meat are far less impacting people's lifestyles than banning airtravel. And a much more effective policy. Simply because the replacement is much easier to find.

Politically changes need to happen too.

I’d implement a rule of 7 year terms, and that anyone whose mother or father or immediate family was involved in politics cannot stand for public office or even so much as communicate with a political party. That’ll end short termism and nepotism, which are the cancers of the European political class.

I’d end the monopoly that Ivy League/Oxbridge/College of Europe economists have in the public sector, themselves essentially high priests  of at the margin thinking who are unable to find concrete solutions that engineers and multidisciplinary practitioners of policy have. Cummings is a cockhead but he is totally right about the public service needing the type of profiles that are better than just being able to budget and think at the margin.

I’d jettison Italy from the EU, cut it from all trade and try and annex parts of it so we can crank up the interest rates and start tanking the European asset-holding class who made their wealth off the back of free money and initially cheap but overall expensive energy class. Also I hold Italians in Brussels responsible for the culture of “charm and warm fuzzy feelings before output” around here that has to change.

I would blockade Switzerland until it submits to our terms on things like energy, trade and releases all the banking details of our political class and billionaire class.

I would grow some balls as a European geopolitical power.
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SnowLabrador
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« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2022, 05:45:52 PM »

This is exhibit 548 in how depraved we are as a country. Europeans are tolerating them just fine for the sake of defending Ukraine, whereas we're going to vote in the GOP, who will side with Putin. Truth be told, if we did not have a Democratic trifecta right now, Ukraine would have already lost the war.
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Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom
theflyingmongoose
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« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2022, 07:26:34 PM »

Both the far left and far right clowns have united in blaming Ukraine and America for this. FFS. This is mostly Russia's fault.
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Zinneke
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« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2022, 08:21:17 AM »

P$G's highest paid player and coach laugh at the idea of taking a one hour traine instead of a private jet, but the European proletariat should definitely turn off their WiFi before leaving the house.

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parochial boy
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« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2022, 04:21:49 PM »

Gonna do a but of Swissposting, but I found out today that my electricity tariff is going up a whopping 0% next year. Outrageous, unbelievable, how am I going to afford those 25 francs every month?

Anyway, more to the point, I was talking to a guy who actually works for the federal energy agency and he had a pretty interesting description of the situation. In essence, electricity in Switzerland is nationalised; but in an incredibly complex structure where you buy energy from your local energy company. Typically owned by some combination of the canton or commune. These energy companies themselves either have the choice of buying their energy on the free market; or by producing their own (usually in conglomeration with other local companies).

End effect is that those who have take the second option are able to hold their tariffs flat for the next year because they are able to produce to meet their own needs. While those on the second level are having to hand out big price increases to cover their own increaed costs. Of course, this is basically a story of how right or left wing your local authorities are. Or the more left wing where you live is, the less likely you are to be faced with inflation.

But in any case, it is quite an impressive repudiation of the principles of the free market, and even the right wing parties have had to make quick u-turns on the subject in the last week or so. To the point it has essentially killed the moves to liberalise the energy market.

Of course, Switzerland does have some enormous natural advantages when it comes to renewable energy production. But at the same time, having such a big difference within the country is pretty damning.
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Zinneke
JosepBroz
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« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2022, 05:13:22 AM »

The thing is the calls to liberalise the energy markets come from somewhat valid criticisms of the governance structures that act as middle men between the suppliers and distributors . In Belgium this is the intercommunales, which are set up by politicians as for profit utility companies and they put their cronies there to earn obscene money. To the extent that when it comes to my bill 40% of it eventually goes to the supplier and 60% gets lost to box ticking bureaucrats who are mates if the local mayor.

So nationalisation only works if you don't have crooks for statesmen who have made massive clientelistic networks through these types of middlemen and in addition are willing to underwrite distributors that go bust.

Saying the private sector is the sole responsible actor is reductionary. It has been a team effort of public-private collusion to rip off the consumer in Europe. And it's important when debating the libertarians who think mass privatisation would benefit them that you still agree with their idea of less bureaucracy and boxticking overall.
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