State Department to evacuate families of embassy personnel in Ukraine

[GeneralMacArthur]

Am I making this up or didn't Trump say some dumb s--t about Ukraine too?  Like didn't he say "why do we care about Ukraine" or contradict U.S. intelligence about Russian aggression in the region or something like that?

[Calthrina950]

With Afghanistan, we had a reason to get out since there was nothing left to defend, even though Biden botched that withdrawal. However withdrawing from Ukraine is a horrible move at this time, as it is at threat of being invaded by Russia. It seems like this move is going to benefit Putin at the expense of almost everyone else.

It's not an invasion if it is rightfully part of Russia's sphere of influence. It's no less moral than American Manifest Destiny.

Putin sees Biden as a useful idiot, much like how Emperor Xi views him. Putin doesn't want to be "buddy-buddy", he just wants our oil and gas. Going energy dependent benefits Russia & China at the expense of our country. Cracking into the reserves does the same. All this is going to do is raise the amount of $$ necessary for heating, which will lead to them coming in for our dwindling resources. Our enemies are laughing at us and he's playing right along. The left was up in arms about Trump's relationship with Putin, Biden going as far as calling Trump "Putin's puppy", even though Trump was smart enough to avoid anything that would weaken us. Now that Trump's out, they no longer care.

I think Putin had a similar view of Trump, and of Obama for that matter. Who was the last American President that was actually respected by the Russians? I think it was either Reagan or H.W. Bush.

[Vice President Christian Man]

With Afghanistan, we had a reason to get out since there was nothing left to defend, even though Biden botched that withdrawal. However withdrawing from Ukraine is a horrible move at this time, as it is at threat of being invaded by Russia. It seems like this move is going to benefit Putin at the expense of almost everyone else.

It's not an invasion if it is rightfully part of Russia's sphere of influence. It's no less moral than American Manifest Destiny.

Putin sees Biden as a useful idiot, much like how Emperor Xi views him. Putin doesn't want to be "buddy-buddy", he just wants our oil and gas. Going energy dependent benefits Russia & China at the expense of our country. Cracking into the reserves does the same. All this is going to do is raise the amount of $$ necessary for heating, which will lead to them coming in for our dwindling resources. Our enemies are laughing at us and he's playing right along. The left was up in arms about Trump's relationship with Putin, Biden going as far as calling Trump "Putin's puppy", even though Trump was smart enough to avoid anything that would weaken us. Now that Trump's out, they no longer care.

I think Putin had a similar view of Trump, and of Obama for that matter. Who was the last American President that was actually respected by the Russians? I think it was either Reagan or H.W. Bush.

Putin and W had a good relationship while he was in the White House, but he acknowledged that Putin changed. Excluding that, Clinton had a good relationship with Yeltsen as well.

[GeneralMacArthur]

It would be a lot easier for American politicians to take tough stances on Russia that they could back up if 80% of the American public wasn't biting hard, hook line and sinker, on Russian propaganda that portrayed any American military action as warmongering or "American imperialism" or a money-making scheme of the military-industrial complex or a quest for more dead children.

[Calthrina950]

With Afghanistan, we had a reason to get out since there was nothing left to defend, even though Biden botched that withdrawal. However withdrawing from Ukraine is a horrible move at this time, as it is at threat of being invaded by Russia. It seems like this move is going to benefit Putin at the expense of almost everyone else.

It's not an invasion if it is rightfully part of Russia's sphere of influence. It's no less moral than American Manifest Destiny.

Putin sees Biden as a useful idiot, much like how Emperor Xi views him. Putin doesn't want to be "buddy-buddy", he just wants our oil and gas. Going energy dependent benefits Russia & China at the expense of our country. Cracking into the reserves does the same. All this is going to do is raise the amount of $$ necessary for heating, which will lead to them coming in for our dwindling resources. Our enemies are laughing at us and he's playing right along. The left was up in arms about Trump's relationship with Putin, Biden going as far as calling Trump "Putin's puppy", even though Trump was smart enough to avoid anything that would weaken us. Now that Trump's out, they no longer care.

I think Putin had a similar view of Trump, and of Obama for that matter. Who was the last American President that was actually respected by the Russians? I think it was either Reagan or H.W. Bush.

Putin and W had a good relationship while he was in the White House, but he acknowledged that Putin changed. Excluding that, Clinton had a good relationship with Yeltsen as well.

I see, and I do recall seeing a picture of Yelstin and Clinton in a "joyous moment" at the White House, when Yelstin was making a state visit to the United States. But otherwise, I don't think the Russians have particularly respected any recent President. Putin occupied Crimea during Obama's tenure, tried to interfere in the 2016 presidential election (not directly, but through a campaign of spying and social media misinformation, as exemplified by Maria Butina), and is now making hostile moves towards the rest of Ukraine. He's also funneled aid to Assad's regime and has been generally friendly towards our enemies, such as Iran and North Korea.

Biden is in a tough spot, and I'm not sure his Administration is handling this matter correctly.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I would strongly encourage everyone to avoid posting any strategic ideas or plans for how you would handle the situation, or any advice for Biden other than a generic "be tougher."

In a few weeks you're all doing to be saying "I don't want a war with Russia but I think Biden could have done a better job avoiding war" and you definitely don't want to leave any posts that could be used to try to pin you down to any concrete, specific action items.  The vaguer the better.  Ideally you can get away with simply saying "I'd do it differently" and leave it at that.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Am I making this up or didn't Trump say some dumb s--t about Ukraine too?  Like didn't he say "why do we care about Ukraine" or contradict U.S. intelligence about Russian aggression in the region or something like that?

Yes he was horrible on his issue  too and very few of us on here are interested in defending him . Maybe for once you can stop your Democrat good Republican bad sh**tick and agree that this has been an all around failure from US leaders and not just politicians but from our bureaucrats as well .

[Big Abraham]

trump was a complete kiss-ass to Putin.

Is that why Trump massively increased sanctions on him and bombed Russia's allies numerous times?

[ProudModerate2]

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Am I making this up or didn't Trump say some dumb s--t about Ukraine too?  Like didn't he say "why do we care about Ukraine" or contradict U.S. intelligence about Russian aggression in the region or something like that?

Yes he was horrible on his issue  too and very few of us on here are interested in defending him . Maybe for once you can stop your Democrat good Republican bad sh**tick and agree that this has been an all around failure from US leaders and not just politicians but from our bureaucrats as well .

Among many other failures, Donald Trump tried to blackmail Ukraine (with the threat of refusing help against Russian aggression) for personal political gain. Your party, which he still leads, refused to impeach him for that. Please stop trying to bothsides this. You are defending him while claiming you're not. It's pure gaslighting.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Am I making this up or didn't Trump say some dumb s--t about Ukraine too?  Like didn't he say "why do we care about Ukraine" or contradict U.S. intelligence about Russian aggression in the region or something like that?

Yes he was horrible on his issue  too and very few of us on here are interested in defending him . Maybe for once you can stop your Democrat good Republican bad sh**tick and agree that this has been an all around failure from US leaders and not just politicians but from our bureaucrats as well .

No, I'm not going to indulge your effort to both-sides this by pretending that completely unnecessary deference to Putin and undermining of critical anti-Russia alliances (which you couldn't have cared less about at the time) by the Republican president is somehow equitable to tough decisions made by Democratic presidents to avert direct conflict under very difficult circumstances (which you love to criticize, although your proposed alternatives are mere hand-waving "don't be weak" crap)

[OSR stands with Israel]

Am I making this up or didn't Trump say some dumb s--t about Ukraine too?  Like didn't he say "why do we care about Ukraine" or contradict U.S. intelligence about Russian aggression in the region or something like that?

Yes he was horrible on his issue  too and very few of us on here are interested in defending him . Maybe for once you can stop your Democrat good Republican bad sh**tick and agree that this has been an all around failure from US leaders and not just politicians but from our bureaucrats as well .

No, I'm not going to indulge your effort to both-sides this by pretending that completely unnecessary deference to Putin and undermining of critical anti-Russia alliances (which you couldn't have cared less about at the time) by the Republican president is somehow equitable to tough decisions made by Democratic presidents to avert direct conflict under very difficult circumstances (which you love to criticize, although your proposed alternatives are mere hand-waving "don't be weak" crap)

I absoutley went after Trump in the moments he was weak with Russia so please dont try to rewrite history. Dont worry though, the people I blame the most aren't Obama or Biden but our bureaucrats who have dont a terrible terrible job and have proven over and over to be massively incompetent.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Am I making this up or didn't Trump say some dumb s--t about Ukraine too?  Like didn't he say "why do we care about Ukraine" or contradict U.S. intelligence about Russian aggression in the region or something like that?

Yes he was horrible on his issue  too and very few of us on here are interested in defending him . Maybe for once you can stop your Democrat good Republican bad sh**tick and agree that this has been an all around failure from US leaders and not just politicians but from our bureaucrats as well .

No, I'm not going to indulge your effort to both-sides this by pretending that completely unnecessary deference to Putin and undermining of critical anti-Russia alliances (which you couldn't have cared less about at the time) by the Republican president is somehow equitable to tough decisions made by Democratic presidents to avert direct conflict under very difficult circumstances (which you love to criticize, although your proposed alternatives are mere hand-waving "don't be weak" crap)

I absoutley went after Trump in the moments he was weak with Russia so please dont try to rewrite history. Dont worry though, the people I blame the most aren't Obama or Biden but our bureaucrats who have dont a terrible terrible job and have proven over and over to be massively incompetent.

Ok, let's say I can wave a magic wand and make you the secretary of state at any point in the last decade.  How are you stopping Russian aggression?

The fundamental problem is that our European NATO allies seem a lot less concerned about Russian aggression in their own backyard, and I think a lot of it is due to east-west prejudice that I've encountered a lot in Europe.  Western Europeans treat the misfortunes of Ukraine the same way conservatives treat the misfortunes of San Francisco.

You have to surround and stonewall Russia if you're gonna draw a hard line on Putin's plans to annex weak neighbors.  And to do that you not only have to care, you have to be willing to care enough to give up Russian oil and increase military spending and put lives at risk deploying your forces to f---ing Nowhereistan.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Am I making this up or didn't Trump say some dumb s--t about Ukraine too?  Like didn't he say "why do we care about Ukraine" or contradict U.S. intelligence about Russian aggression in the region or something like that?

Yes he was horrible on his issue  too and very few of us on here are interested in defending him . Maybe for once you can stop your Democrat good Republican bad sh**tick and agree that this has been an all around failure from US leaders and not just politicians but from our bureaucrats as well .

No, I'm not going to indulge your effort to both-sides this by pretending that completely unnecessary deference to Putin and undermining of critical anti-Russia alliances (which you couldn't have cared less about at the time) by the Republican president is somehow equitable to tough decisions made by Democratic presidents to avert direct conflict under very difficult circumstances (which you love to criticize, although your proposed alternatives are mere hand-waving "don't be weak" crap)

I absoutley went after Trump in the moments he was weak with Russia so please dont try to rewrite history. Dont worry though, the people I blame the most aren't Obama or Biden but our bureaucrats who have dont a terrible terrible job and have proven over and over to be massively incompetent.

Ok, let's say I can wave a magic wand and make you the secretary of state at any point in the last decade.  How are you stopping Russian aggression?

The fundamental problem is that our European NATO allies seem a lot less concerned about Russian aggression in their own backyard, and I think a lot of it is due to east-west prejudice that I've encountered a lot in Europe.  Western Europeans treat the misfortunes of Ukraine the same way conservatives treat the misfortunes of San Francisco.

You have to surround and stonewall Russia if you're gonna draw a hard line on Putin's plans to annex weak neighbors.  And to do that you not only have to care, you have to be willing to care enough to give up Russian oil and increase military spending and put lives at risk deploying your forces to f---ing Nowhereistan.

I probably wouldnt be anywhere near competent enough to do the job but assuming I would have some things I would have done say if I became Sec of State in 2013 was:


1. Make it clear  that any invasion of a foreign nation would be met with Iran Level Sanctions at the very least along with funding of any armed resistance against them

2. Make it clear if any of our allies obstructs our ability to deal with threats to freedom and order, we will tarriff them and make them feel economic consequences for that decision

3. Not get involved in the Syrian Civil War as doing that put a strain on our relationship with Russia for something that didnt benefit us in anyway . In fact doing that helped create ISIS so Id say this was a mistake even if it didnt strain our relationship with Russia

4. If they still invade Crimea , do what I said in step 1 instantly

[Horus]

Can we get universal healthcare please?

[GeneralMacArthur]

Am I making this up or didn't Trump say some dumb s--t about Ukraine too?  Like didn't he say "why do we care about Ukraine" or contradict U.S. intelligence about Russian aggression in the region or something like that?

Yes he was horrible on his issue  too and very few of us on here are interested in defending him . Maybe for once you can stop your Democrat good Republican bad sh**tick and agree that this has been an all around failure from US leaders and not just politicians but from our bureaucrats as well .

No, I'm not going to indulge your effort to both-sides this by pretending that completely unnecessary deference to Putin and undermining of critical anti-Russia alliances (which you couldn't have cared less about at the time) by the Republican president is somehow equitable to tough decisions made by Democratic presidents to avert direct conflict under very difficult circumstances (which you love to criticize, although your proposed alternatives are mere hand-waving "don't be weak" crap)

I absoutley went after Trump in the moments he was weak with Russia so please dont try to rewrite history. Dont worry though, the people I blame the most aren't Obama or Biden but our bureaucrats who have dont a terrible terrible job and have proven over and over to be massively incompetent.

Ok, let's say I can wave a magic wand and make you the secretary of state at any point in the last decade.  How are you stopping Russian aggression?

The fundamental problem is that our European NATO allies seem a lot less concerned about Russian aggression in their own backyard, and I think a lot of it is due to east-west prejudice that I've encountered a lot in Europe.  Western Europeans treat the misfortunes of Ukraine the same way conservatives treat the misfortunes of San Francisco.

You have to surround and stonewall Russia if you're gonna draw a hard line on Putin's plans to annex weak neighbors.  And to do that you not only have to care, you have to be willing to care enough to give up Russian oil and increase military spending and put lives at risk deploying your forces to f---ing Nowhereistan.

I probably wouldnt be anywhere near competent enough to do the job but assuming I would have some things I would have done say if I became Sec of State in 2013 was:


1. Make it clear  that any invasion of a foreign nation would be met with Iran Level Sanctions at the very least along with funding of any armed resistance against them

2. Make it clear if any of our allies obstructs our ability to deal with threats to freedom and order, we will tarriff them and make them feel economic consequences for that decision

3. Not get involved in the Syrian Civil War as doing that put a strain on our relationship with Russia for something that didnt benefit us in anyway . In fact doing that helped create ISIS so Id say this was a mistake even if it didnt strain our relationship with Russia

4. If they still invade Crimea , do what I said in step 1 instantly

So basically you'd do what we did (threaten sanctions and then do them) but you'd also let Russia do whatever it wants in Syria even if it involves using WMDs on civilians, and meanwhile you'd antagonize our allies.  And that's how you'd be tougher on Russia?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Am I making this up or didn't Trump say some dumb s--t about Ukraine too?  Like didn't he say "why do we care about Ukraine" or contradict U.S. intelligence about Russian aggression in the region or something like that?

Yes he was horrible on his issue  too and very few of us on here are interested in defending him . Maybe for once you can stop your Democrat good Republican bad sh**tick and agree that this has been an all around failure from US leaders and not just politicians but from our bureaucrats as well .

No, I'm not going to indulge your effort to both-sides this by pretending that completely unnecessary deference to Putin and undermining of critical anti-Russia alliances (which you couldn't have cared less about at the time) by the Republican president is somehow equitable to tough decisions made by Democratic presidents to avert direct conflict under very difficult circumstances (which you love to criticize, although your proposed alternatives are mere hand-waving "don't be weak" crap)

I absoutley went after Trump in the moments he was weak with Russia so please dont try to rewrite history. Dont worry though, the people I blame the most aren't Obama or Biden but our bureaucrats who have dont a terrible terrible job and have proven over and over to be massively incompetent.

Ok, let's say I can wave a magic wand and make you the secretary of state at any point in the last decade.  How are you stopping Russian aggression?

The fundamental problem is that our European NATO allies seem a lot less concerned about Russian aggression in their own backyard, and I think a lot of it is due to east-west prejudice that I've encountered a lot in Europe.  Western Europeans treat the misfortunes of Ukraine the same way conservatives treat the misfortunes of San Francisco.

You have to surround and stonewall Russia if you're gonna draw a hard line on Putin's plans to annex weak neighbors.  And to do that you not only have to care, you have to be willing to care enough to give up Russian oil and increase military spending and put lives at risk deploying your forces to f---ing Nowhereistan.

I probably wouldnt be anywhere near competent enough to do the job but assuming I would have some things I would have done say if I became Sec of State in 2013 was:


1. Make it clear  that any invasion of a foreign nation would be met with Iran Level Sanctions at the very least along with funding of any armed resistance against them

2. Make it clear if any of our allies obstructs our ability to deal with threats to freedom and order, we will tarriff them and make them feel economic consequences for that decision

3. Not get involved in the Syrian Civil War as doing that put a strain on our relationship with Russia for something that didnt benefit us in anyway . In fact doing that helped create ISIS so Id say this was a mistake even if it didnt strain our relationship with Russia

4. If they still invade Crimea , do what I said in step 1 instantly

So basically you'd do what we did (threaten sanctions and then do them) but you'd also let Russia do whatever it wants in Syria even if it involves using WMDs on civilians, and meanwhile you'd antagonize our allies.  And that's how you'd be tougher on Russia?

ISIS were worse than Assad so I don’t see how backing them did us any good what so ever . Also no we didn’t impose Iranian level sanctions and didn’t tarriff European nations who made deals with Russia

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/1486062076305018881