Opinion of Billy Graham

[DaleCooper]

What do you think?

[Fetterman my beloved]

HP purely for popularizing televangelism, and making it so that grifters like Jim Bakker could thrive.

[DaleCooper]

HP purely for popularizing televangelism, and making it so that grifters like Jim Bakker could thrive.

I think that's a fair vote. The Reverend Billy Graham is a man who is easier to dislike for what he influenced more than for what he did or said himself. In fact, Graham was surprisingly progressive when it came to ecumenical cooperation and even interfaith cooperation. While his support for civil rights has been overstated over the decades, he also deserves acknowledgement for opposing segregation before his time, unlike Jerry Falwell. So overall, I think it's very unfair to label Graham as being of the same group of odious men like Falwell, Bakker, or even his son Franklin Graham, but his role in popularizing this brand of born-again (i.e., agree with me) Christianity for a new era undoubtedly allowed his faith to be a vehicle for politicians and other conmen.

I'm not comfortable with either FF or HP at this point but I'm open to hearing arguments for both, which is why I started the thread and was hoping it'd get more traction than it did.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

He had a gradual evolution on civil rights and shifted away from using his ministry to bash Catholics and demonize JFK for being a Catholic. Not a perfect man by any means, and as OP said it's easier to criticize what he influenced than what he did, but he never conned people out of their money to support his "ministry", he never sold prosperity miracle water or bogus COVID-19 "cures", he kept his hands to himself (literally invented what is now known as the "Pence rule"), he didn't do silly things like slide down a water slide for entertainment, and he ministered to presidents of both parties without wading into politics itself or becoming a cultural warrior.

I probably don't agree with a lot of the finer points of his theology, but he simply preached Scripture and made it more accessible to people in the developing world. By the very end, when he'd long retired from preaching, he supposedly endorsed Romney out of the blue (and subsequently removed LDS from his website's list of cults), but by that point it's pretty obvious Franklin was holding all the reins.

[Vice President Christian Man]

FF

[DaleCooper]

FF

Why?

[Vice President Christian Man]

FF

Why?

A lot of people got saved thanks to his ministry.

[DaleCooper]

FF

Why?

A lot of people got saved thanks to his ministry.

Do you have any opinions on his ministry or his understanding of the Bible?

[Podgy the Bear]

Given that his evangelism began at the start of the television era, it was inevitable that he would take advantage of this media to get his message across.

My opinion of Billy Graham has remained highly favorable through the years, and I state this as a centrist Catholic.   Yes, he came out of an evangelical background, and he made no secret about his conservative politics.  But unlike today's bunch of so called evangelists, Graham made concerted efforts to reach to the other side.  I remember an appearance on Larry King in the late 1980s when he said he was against abortion except in cases of rape, incest, or when the woman's life was in danger.    He would be a total outcast in today's Republican Party!

His message remained consistent: We are all sinners and we don't deserve to get to heaven, but through God's grace and our belief in Jesus Christ as our savior, we will get there.

 

[Benjamin Frank]

Absolutely horrible person.  An anti-semite and homophobe who wanted to kill millions in North Vietnam and believed that AIDS was a "judgment from God."

"... If they wouldn't come to the negotiating table, Graham urged (Nixon), the U.S. should bomb the dikes and flood vast sections of the country to collapse their economy."

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/lets-not-forget-famed-evangelist-billy-graham-was-an-aspiring-war-criminal/

I don't dispute that he came to repent many of these views, but these were the things that he advocated during the height of his power.  The harm he caused people is real and is no way balanced by his pseudo religious preachings.

[Del Tachi]

FF

[Vice President Christian Man]

FF

Why?

A lot of people got saved thanks to his ministry.

Do you have any opinions on his ministry or his understanding of the Bible?

I'm more open minded than he was on most issues as he came from the old school disassociate from non-Christians camp and I think God loves everyone. Also he was more of a traditionalist overall (militarized anti-communism, homophobia, antisemitism/islamophobia), but I agree with him on some of his interpretations, particularly regarding salvation. Overall we disagree the most on who God is, as he views God particularly as the O.T. God and I view him (God) as a combination of holy/just while remaining loving.

[fhtagn]

I've agreed to let him be the only protestant on the wall in my prayer corner.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I have some important doctrinal disagreements with him, but he was overall a positive influence on society. I voted FF easily.

[TransfemmeGoreVidal]

Massive HP and false prophet. Televangelists are modern day pharisees and servants of Satan.

[DaleCooper]

Massive HP and false prophet. Televangelists are modern day pharisees and servants of Satan.

This is my biggest hangup with Graham as well. I see no biblical justification for using Christianity as a money-making scheme.

[Skill and Chance]

Massive HP and false prophet. Televangelists are modern day pharisees and servants of Satan.

This is my biggest hangup with Graham as well. I see no biblical justification for using Christianity as a money-making scheme.

The problem televangelists came a generation after Graham, though.  He absolutely should not be lumped in with the heretical "private jets for Christ" crowd.

[Alben Barkley]

Far better than his son and just about every other prominent evangelical leader since him, I’ll give him that much at least.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I got saved at the Billy Graham Pavillion in 1965, so I vote FF. 

My Mother was a mainline Lutheran.  She was also a political liberal, a coordinator for her local chapter of Common Cause, and a passionate advocate of the Nuclear Freeze.  She hated all televangelists, as they were Republicans and she was pro-choice.  But she liked Billy Graham, and viewed him as one of the few prominent of his type she thought favorably of.

If you watch a Billy Graham Crusade meeting, you'll see that he offered only one thing:  Salvation through Jesus Christ.  Not Prosperity.  Not Prophetic Words.  Not the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire.  Not even calls for Healing.  Just Salvation.  He asked for money very appropriately, and never asked for monies that a believer would use to support their local church body.  No Hocus Pocus, and no Biblical Apostasy.  It's one reason Billy Graham experienced very little of the criticism than many "televangelists".  I'm Saved because he brought Christ to me as an 8 year old boy, and Christ kept me as an irresponsible young adult until I came to my senses.

For John Dule, ProudModerate2, DaleCooper, and a few other people who have truly been jerks to me on this subject (often due to their own agendas that they are not open about), I will say this:  I know that I am Saved.  I not only know what I was Saved FOR, but I also know what I was Saved FROM and Saved TO.  And I know who did that; it was my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. 

I voted for Donald Trump.  I would do so again.  But Donald Trump did not save me.  Jesus Christ did.  It was Christ's Redemptive Work on the Cross that made my Salvation possible, and it was Billy Graham that brought that message to me in a way I could understand at age 8.  And it will be the Name of Jesus (and ONLY the Name of Jesus) for whom I will bow my knee and confess with my tongue.  For the above people, those comments you have made about me in that regard are the most ignorant you have made while posting on this Forum. 

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Mixed bag. This:

He had a gradual evolution on civil rights and shifted away from using his ministry to bash Catholics and demonize JFK for being a Catholic. Not a perfect man by any means, and as OP said it's easier to criticize what he influenced than what he did, but he never conned people out of their money to support his "ministry", he never sold prosperity miracle water or bogus COVID-19 "cures", he kept his hands to himself (literally invented what is now known as the "Pence rule"), he didn't do silly things like slide down a water slide for entertainment, and he ministered to presidents of both parties without wading into politics itself or becoming a cultural warrior.

isn't quite true; a recent-ish American Experience episode on Graham devoted a lot of time to his role in the Eisenhower administration's expansion (indeed, in some ways, establishment) of American civil religion in its modern form, and he was definitely a Cold Warrior. (Although, weirdly, the episode didn't cover his even closer relationship with LBJ.) He also never had anything close to the "evolution" on homosexuality that he had on race relations and interfaith dialogue. On the other hand, he does have to be credited for his lifelong engagement with and reassessment of his views on those issues, an engagement and reassessment that certainly nobody would expect of his modern inheritors, his horrible son first and foremost among them.

[DaleCooper]

I got saved at the Billy Graham Pavillion in 1965, so I vote FF. 

My Mother was a mainline Lutheran.  She was also a political liberal, a coordinator for her local chapter of Common Cause, and a passionate advocate of the Nuclear Freeze.  She hated all televangelists, as they were Republicans and she was pro-choice.  But she liked Billy Graham, and viewed him as one of the few prominent of his type she thought favorably of.

If you watch a Billy Graham Crusade meeting, you'll see that he offered only one thing:  Salvation through Jesus Christ.  Not Prosperity.  Not Prophetic Words.  Not the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire.  Not even calls for Healing.  Just Salvation.  He asked for money very appropriately, and never asked for monies that a believer would use to support their local church body.  No Hocus Pocus, and no Biblical Apostasy.  It's one reason Billy Graham experienced very little of the criticism than many "televangelists".  I'm Saved because he brought Christ to me as an 8 year old boy, and Christ kept me as an irresponsible young adult until I came to my senses.

For John Dule, ProudModerate2, DaleCooper, and a few other people who have truly been jerks to me on this subject (often due to their own agendas that they are not open about), I will say this:  I know that I am Saved.  I not only know what I was Saved FOR, but I also know what I was Saved FROM and Saved TO.  And I know who did that; it was my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. 

I voted for Donald Trump.  I would do so again.  But Donald Trump did not save me.  Jesus Christ did.  It was Christ's Redemptive Work on the Cross that made my Salvation possible, and it was Billy Graham that brought that message to me in a way I could understand at age 8.  And it will be the Name of Jesus (and ONLY the Name of Jesus) for whom I will bow my knee and confess with my tongue.  For the above people, those comments you have made about me in that regard are the most ignorant you have made while posting on this Forum. 

The bolded part actually fuels my biggest problem with Billy Graham's influence on 20th and 21st century American Christianity. I myself don't care much for the salvation through faith alone interpretation of the New Testament, but I recognize that the documents are murky enough that it's not exactly fair to hold that interpretation against anybody. I do resent that people like Billy Graham, regardless of their intentions, have turned Christianity in this country into a club of people who only have to agree with each other in order to be saved. Until Christians en masse in this country try to be a light in the darkness as their Savior commanded them to be, and feed the hungry and clothe the sick and comfort the weak in the name of Christ, their religion will never be appreciated. Bringing people to embrace what is often a dead faith isn't going to help anyone, or improve the reputation of Christ's name. There's a reason why every nonbeliever runs for the hills the second they hear the words "Jesus," "Christ," or "Bible", and it's because they instinctively know that these people trying to "witness" are only trying to get them to agree, and nothing more.

As for me being a jerk, I'm surprised to read that seeing as how I am one of the few people who disagrees with you that actually appreciates your non-conspiratorial posts and respects your right to express your political and religious convictions on all matters. I've definitely taken issue with some of your posts and expressed myself on those matters. I may not be a Christian anymore (the reasons for why are a story for another thread) but I still study the Bible and I take it very seriously. Does having a strong opinion on the Bible make me a jerk? Whatever the answer is, I enjoy your presence on the forum and apologize for offending you.

I didn't want to talk about Donald Trump in this thread, but since you brought him up and since this is the religion section of the forum, I'll take the bait. I found it horribly depressing to see how eager American Christians were to throw their hats in the ring for Donald Trump, a man who embodies everything wicked about this world. I'm not the arbiter of what the Christian perspective should be, but I find it hard to believe that many people who read the Bible in its entirety would come away with any interpretation of Trump other than that he's simply another one in the long line of demon-possessed, hell-bound leaders of men who aspire to exalt their thrones above the stars of God and be like the most High. If we're looking at this world through the lens of the Bible, then Trump has far more in common with Pharaoh, or the Herods, or Agrippa, or Ahasuerus, or Caesar Augustus, or any other wicked ruler depicted in the Bible, though Trump falls below even some of those! Pontius Pilate had more humility and a greater sense of justice than Donald Trump. Even Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon managed to humble himself before God in the end. Christians do themselves a great disservice by wedding themselves to the corruption of politics, and that more than anything is the cause of this country's nonbelievers choosing to reject Christianity.

And, bringing this back to the subject of my thread, I recognize that Billy Graham was by far the least partisan of this nation's prominent preachers. He's nothing like the men who ripped off his approach and further monetized it, and I respect him for that. However, I think that Billy Graham did a lot to enable useless "faith" that has little positive impact on the world at large. That's where my conflicting feelings stem from and it's why I raised the topic in the first place. 

[Fuzzy Bear]

I got saved at the Billy Graham Pavillion in 1965, so I vote FF. 

My Mother was a mainline Lutheran.  She was also a political liberal, a coordinator for her local chapter of Common Cause, and a passionate advocate of the Nuclear Freeze.  She hated all televangelists, as they were Republicans and she was pro-choice.  But she liked Billy Graham, and viewed him as one of the few prominent of his type she thought favorably of.

If you watch a Billy Graham Crusade meeting, you'll see that he offered only one thing:  Salvation through Jesus Christ.  Not Prosperity.  Not Prophetic Words.  Not the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire.  Not even calls for Healing.  Just Salvation.  He asked for money very appropriately, and never asked for monies that a believer would use to support their local church body.  No Hocus Pocus, and no Biblical Apostasy.  It's one reason Billy Graham experienced very little of the criticism than many "televangelists".  I'm Saved because he brought Christ to me as an 8 year old boy, and Christ kept me as an irresponsible young adult until I came to my senses.

For John Dule, ProudModerate2, DaleCooper, and a few other people who have truly been jerks to me on this subject (often due to their own agendas that they are not open about), I will say this:  I know that I am Saved.  I not only know what I was Saved FOR, but I also know what I was Saved FROM and Saved TO.  And I know who did that; it was my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. 

I voted for Donald Trump.  I would do so again.  But Donald Trump did not save me.  Jesus Christ did.  It was Christ's Redemptive Work on the Cross that made my Salvation possible, and it was Billy Graham that brought that message to me in a way I could understand at age 8.  And it will be the Name of Jesus (and ONLY the Name of Jesus) for whom I will bow my knee and confess with my tongue.  For the above people, those comments you have made about me in that regard are the most ignorant you have made while posting on this Forum. 

The bolded part actually fuels my biggest problem with Billy Graham's influence on 20th and 21st century American Christianity. I myself don't care much for the salvation through faith alone interpretation of the New Testament, but I recognize that the documents are murky enough that it's not exactly fair to hold that interpretation against anybody. I do resent that people like Billy Graham, regardless of their intentions, have turned Christianity in this country into a club of people who only have to agree with each other in order to be saved. Until Christians en masse in this country try to be a light in the darkness as their Savior commanded them to be, and feed the hungry and clothe the sick and comfort the weak in the name of Christ, their religion will never be appreciated. Bringing people to embrace what is often a dead faith isn't going to help anyone, or improve the reputation of Christ's name. There's a reason why every nonbeliever runs for the hills the second they hear the words "Jesus," "Christ," or "Bible", and it's because they instinctively know that these people trying to "witness" are only trying to get them to agree, and nothing more.

As for me being a jerk, I'm surprised to read that seeing as how I am one of the few people who disagrees with you that actually appreciates your non-conspiratorial posts and respects your right to express your political and religious convictions on all matters. I've definitely taken issue with some of your posts and expressed myself on those matters. I may not be a Christian anymore (the reasons for why are a story for another thread) but I still study the Bible and I take it very seriously. Does having a strong opinion on the Bible make me a jerk? Whatever the answer is, I enjoy your presence on the forum and apologize for offending you.

I didn't want to talk about Donald Trump in this thread, but since you brought him up and since this is the religion section of the forum, I'll take the bait. I found it horribly depressing to see how eager American Christians were to throw their hats in the ring for Donald Trump, a man who embodies everything wicked about this world. I'm not the arbiter of what the Christian perspective should be, but I find it hard to believe that many people who read the Bible in its entirety would come away with any interpretation of Trump other than that he's simply another one in the long line of demon-possessed, hell-bound leaders of men who aspire to exalt their thrones above the stars of God and be like the most High. If we're looking at this world through the lens of the Bible, then Trump has far more in common with Pharaoh, or the Herods, or Agrippa, or Ahasuerus, or Caesar Augustus, or any other wicked ruler depicted in the Bible, though Trump falls below even some of those! Pontius Pilate had more humility and a greater sense of justice than Donald Trump. Even Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon managed to humble himself before God in the end. Christians do themselves a great disservice by wedding themselves to the corruption of politics, and that more than anything is the cause of this country's nonbelievers choosing to reject Christianity.

And, bringing this back to the subject of my thread, I recognize that Billy Graham was by far the least partisan of this nation's prominent preachers. He's nothing like the men who ripped off his approach and further monetized it, and I respect him for that. However, I think that Billy Graham did a lot to enable useless "faith" that has little positive impact on the world at large. That's where my conflicting feelings stem from and it's why I raised the topic in the first place. 

I apologize for the "jerk" comment applying to you.  It does apply to John Dule and ProudModerate2 on this subject, but I do note that your tone on this subject is different than Dule's, and certainly different than ProudModerate2's.  So I admit I was wrong here and ask your forgiveness on this. 

I suppose we will have to disagree on Justification by Faith, Alone as the Wathershed Doctrine of the Church.

As for why, as a Christian, I support Donald Trump, I would say it is because he supports Christians.  I don't honestly know if he is a Christian who has come to labor in the vineyard at the later hours, or if he's still lost.  But Trump, in policymaking, did the Will of the Father far more than Joe Biden has or Hillary Clinton would have.  At worst, he's an HP that did the right thing in important matters.  I'm too tired to go on any more on that.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Baptist Pope FF

[100% pro-life no matter what]

I got saved at the Billy Graham Pavillion in 1965, so I vote FF. 

My Mother was a mainline Lutheran.  She was also a political liberal, a coordinator for her local chapter of Common Cause, and a passionate advocate of the Nuclear Freeze.  She hated all televangelists, as they were Republicans and she was pro-choice.  But she liked Billy Graham, and viewed him as one of the few prominent of his type she thought favorably of.

If you watch a Billy Graham Crusade meeting, you'll see that he offered only one thing:  Salvation through Jesus Christ.  Not Prosperity.  Not Prophetic Words.  Not the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire.  Not even calls for Healing.  Just Salvation.  He asked for money very appropriately, and never asked for monies that a believer would use to support their local church body.  No Hocus Pocus, and no Biblical Apostasy.  It's one reason Billy Graham experienced very little of the criticism than many "televangelists".  I'm Saved because he brought Christ to me as an 8 year old boy, and Christ kept me as an irresponsible young adult until I came to my senses.

For John Dule, ProudModerate2, DaleCooper, and a few other people who have truly been jerks to me on this subject (often due to their own agendas that they are not open about), I will say this:  I know that I am Saved.  I not only know what I was Saved FOR, but I also know what I was Saved FROM and Saved TO.  And I know who did that; it was my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. 

I voted for Donald Trump.  I would do so again.  But Donald Trump did not save me.  Jesus Christ did.  It was Christ's Redemptive Work on the Cross that made my Salvation possible, and it was Billy Graham that brought that message to me in a way I could understand at age 8.  And it will be the Name of Jesus (and ONLY the Name of Jesus) for whom I will bow my knee and confess with my tongue.  For the above people, those comments you have made about me in that regard are the most ignorant you have made while posting on this Forum. 

The bolded part actually fuels my biggest problem with Billy Graham's influence on 20th and 21st century American Christianity. I myself don't care much for the salvation through faith alone interpretation of the New Testament, but I recognize that the documents are murky enough that it's not exactly fair to hold that interpretation against anybody. I do resent that people like Billy Graham, regardless of their intentions, have turned Christianity in this country into a club of people who only have to agree with each other in order to be saved. Until Christians en masse in this country try to be a light in the darkness as their Savior commanded them to be, and feed the hungry and clothe the sick and comfort the weak in the name of Christ, their religion will never be appreciated. Bringing people to embrace what is often a dead faith isn't going to help anyone, or improve the reputation of Christ's name. There's a reason why every nonbeliever runs for the hills the second they hear the words "Jesus," "Christ," or "Bible", and it's because they instinctively know that these people trying to "witness" are only trying to get them to agree, and nothing more.

As for me being a jerk, I'm surprised to read that seeing as how I am one of the few people who disagrees with you that actually appreciates your non-conspiratorial posts and respects your right to express your political and religious convictions on all matters. I've definitely taken issue with some of your posts and expressed myself on those matters. I may not be a Christian anymore (the reasons for why are a story for another thread) but I still study the Bible and I take it very seriously. Does having a strong opinion on the Bible make me a jerk? Whatever the answer is, I enjoy your presence on the forum and apologize for offending you.

I didn't want to talk about Donald Trump in this thread, but since you brought him up and since this is the religion section of the forum, I'll take the bait. I found it horribly depressing to see how eager American Christians were to throw their hats in the ring for Donald Trump, a man who embodies everything wicked about this world. I'm not the arbiter of what the Christian perspective should be, but I find it hard to believe that many people who read the Bible in its entirety would come away with any interpretation of Trump other than that he's simply another one in the long line of demon-possessed, hell-bound leaders of men who aspire to exalt their thrones above the stars of God and be like the most High. If we're looking at this world through the lens of the Bible, then Trump has far more in common with Pharaoh, or the Herods, or Agrippa, or Ahasuerus, or Caesar Augustus, or any other wicked ruler depicted in the Bible, though Trump falls below even some of those! Pontius Pilate had more humility and a greater sense of justice than Donald Trump. Even Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon managed to humble himself before God in the end. Christians do themselves a great disservice by wedding themselves to the corruption of politics, and that more than anything is the cause of this country's nonbelievers choosing to reject Christianity.

And, bringing this back to the subject of my thread, I recognize that Billy Graham was by far the least partisan of this nation's prominent preachers. He's nothing like the men who ripped off his approach and further monetized it, and I respect him for that. However, I think that Billy Graham did a lot to enable useless "faith" that has little positive impact on the world at large. That's where my conflicting feelings stem from and it's why I raised the topic in the first place. 

I apologize for the "jerk" comment applying to you.  It does apply to John Dule and ProudModerate2 on this subject, but I do note that your tone on this subject is different than Dule's, and certainly different than ProudModerate2's.  So I admit I was wrong here and ask your forgiveness on this. 

I suppose we will have to disagree on Justification by Faith, Alone as the Wathershed Doctrine of the Church.

As for why, as a Christian, I support Donald Trump, I would say it is because he supports Christians.  I don't honestly know if he is a Christian who has come to labor in the vineyard at the later hours, or if he's still lost.  But Trump, in policymaking, did the Will of the Father far more than Joe Biden has or Hillary Clinton would have.  At worst, he's an HP that did the right thing in important matters.  I'm too tired to go on any more on that.

We don't have to always agree with each other to be Saved, as long as we have accepted Christ as our Savior.  There is robust theological debate, even if we limit it to the sort of evangelical circles I live in.  Things like predestination vs. free will or continuationism vs. cessationism can cause very robust debates among evangelicals.