How Muslim is the Nation of Islam?

[Samof94]

They seem to have the name Muslim in their name but their theology revolves more around black separatism than traditional Islam. Thoughts?

[Dr. MB]

I see Yakub's traps are working as intended on all the white devils here.

[If my soul was made of stone]

Even if religion really were "merely" the result of mental illness, it could be considered a means of making living with mental illness bearable. Modern society has historically been far too willing to pathologize anything that it deems as a threat to its enforced state of mind--see "drapetomania", or "oppositional defiant disorder".

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Now I'll never know if SecularGlobalist recommended my low-effort response to his post. Sad!

The relationship of the Nation of Islam to orthodox Islam strikes me as sort of similar to the relationship of Mormonism to mainstream Christianity--lots of similarities, lots of dissimilarities, and (much as most NOI people would hate having it put this way!) a heaping spoonful of American particularism to make the medicine go down.

[If my soul was made of stone]

Now I'll never know if SecularGlobalist recommended my low-effort response to his post. Sad!

He did.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Actual devout Muslims seem not to like it.  I'm not knowledgeable enough on Islam to say that it is or isn't really Islamic though.

[Samof94]

Now I'll never know if SecularGlobalist recommended my low-effort response to his post. Sad!

The relationship of the Nation of Islam to orthodox Islam strikes me as sort of similar to the relationship of Mormonism to mainstream Christianity--lots of similarities, lots of dissimilarities, and (much as most NOI people would hate having it put this way!) a heaping spoonful of American particularism to make the medicine go down.

Yeah. It is heavily influenced my Marcus Garvey, a Jamaican who advocated Back to Africa and didn’t like the British being in charge.

[Sol]

It's my understanding that early forms of the NoI were quite unusual/unorthodox relative to much of Islam, but after the death of Elijah Muhammad most of its followers have moved to being more typical Sunni Muslims.

[Хahar 🤔]

Now I'll never know if SecularGlobalist recommended my low-effort response to his post. Sad!

The relationship of the Nation of Islam to orthodox Islam strikes me as sort of similar to the relationship of Mormonism to mainstream Christianity--lots of similarities, lots of dissimilarities, and (much as most NOI people would hate having it put this way!) a heaping spoonful of American particularism to make the medicine go down.

I don't like this analogy, in part because there's already a large religious group that has basically the same relationship to mainstream Islam that Mormonism has to mainstream Christianity, with the only exception being that they believe that after the Crucifixion, Jesus went to India rather than America. I can't immediately think of a satisfying analogy, but you may be able to, since it seems to me that the strongest similarities might lie in Christian-derived new religious movements in East Asia.

It's my understanding that early forms of the NoI were quite unusual/unorthodox relative to much of Islam, but after the death of Elijah Muhammad most of its followers have moved to being more typical Sunni Muslims.

This is correct but misleading. It's true that Warith Deen Mohammed joined conventional Islam along with most of his followers, but in doing so they abandoned the "Nation of Islam" name. The term "Nation of Islam" today refers to the followers of Louis Farrakhan, who actively rejected that move.

My understanding is that even prior to the death of Elijah Muhammad and the major changes that followed, the Nation of Islam provided a path for plenty of individuals to gradually transition to mainstream Islam. Malcolm X is the most prominent example of this. Given how marginal and isolated the contemporary Nation of Islam is, it's hard to imagine it serving such a role now. It's telling that the primary interfaith outreach the Nation of Islam has embarked upon in recent years has been its embrace of Dianetics.

I obviously am not old enough to remember the original Nation of Islam, nor have I interacted with members of the contemporary Nation of Islam, but I can say that American Muslims today do not really consider the Nation of Islam to be even Islam-adjacent (or, for that matter, think much about the Nation of Islam at all). Its beliefs and practices, such as they are, do not bear much relation to any Islamic cultural or theological traditions. Fundamentally this is why I don't think that Nathan's analogy is accurate: Mormonism is descended from Protestantism, but the Nation of Islam is not descended from any sort of Islam.

Wikipedia has this to say about the Nation of Islam's theology:

The sociologist of religion David V. Barrett noted that the Nation's theology is "very distinct" and "extremely detailed."^[19] The Nation provides conflicting statements about its theology; although it professes commitment to the monotheistic idea of a single God, its discourse refers to multiple gods.^[32] These gods are described as being anthropomorphic, taking human form.^[33] In his 1965 book Message to the Black Man, Elijah Muhammad wrote that "God is a man and we just cannot make Him other than a man, lest we make Him an inferior one; for man's intelligence has no equal in other than man. His wisdom is infinite; capable of accomplishing anything that His brain can conceive."^[34]

The NOI teaches that history can be divided into distinct cycles, each ruled by a new god who takes over from his predecessor.^[35] The Nation teaches that none of these gods are immortal, but all die,^[36] at which a new god will take their place.^[37] They believe that the first god consciously took the form of a black man,[38] and the idea of God as a black man is central to its theology.^[39] Each god has different abilities and degrees of power.^[33] The Nation regards its founder, Fard Muhammad, as the latest of these gods,^[40] or "God in person".^[33] They believe that he is the first god to have the same powers as the inaugural god, namely the ability to return the universe to its primordial darkness and then recreate it,^[40] for he has developed the divine capacity innate to black people to the maximum degree.^[37]

The Nation promotes the idea that "God is man and man is God, that God has a presence inside human individuals."^[41] It teaches that the black race, in its natural state, is divine;^[42] collectively, the black race is God,^[43] or a "nation of Gods".^[33] Elijah Muhammad said that "all Muslims are Allahs."^[44] According to its teachings, "knowledge of self" is key for black people to realize their inner divinity.^[45] The NOI thus teaches that by following its teachings, one can recognize one's inner Godliness.^[46] Elijah Muhammad taught that humans could develop parapsychological powers and claimed that he personally had telepathic abilities.^[47] In this, it differs from the mainstream Islamic belief in a fundamental ontological divide between humanity and God;^[42] in mainstream Islam, Allah is always portrayed as eternal and non-anthropomorphic, which is at odds with the theology of the NOI.^[33] Elijah Muhammad taught that there is no spiritual realm, and that the material universe is all that exists.^[48] The NOI does not teach the existence of an afterlife;^[49] Elijah Muhamad wrote that "when you are dead, you are DEAD."^[17]

Wikipedia helpfully observes what anyone with even passing familiarity with Islam can see, which is that these beliefs have no relation to Islam. The most relevant context here is that of black religious movements of the early 20th century, most notably Noble Drew Ali's Moorish Science Temple. (Father Divine's movement in New York, although not a direct predecessor of the Nation of Islam, is also of interest.) The identification by Wallace Fard Muhammad of his movement with Islam can best be understood as an outgrowth of general orientalist interest in Islamicate culture in the West in the early 20th century, combined with a vague identification of Islam with Africa.

[Samof94]

Now I'll never know if SecularGlobalist recommended my low-effort response to his post. Sad!

The relationship of the Nation of Islam to orthodox Islam strikes me as sort of similar to the relationship of Mormonism to mainstream Christianity--lots of similarities, lots of dissimilarities, and (much as most NOI people would hate having it put this way!) a heaping spoonful of American particularism to make the medicine go down.

I don't like this analogy, in part because there's already a large religious group that has basically the same relationship to mainstream Islam that Mormonism has to mainstream Christianity, with the only exception being that they believe that after the Crucifixion, Jesus went to India rather than America. I can't immediately think of a satisfying analogy, but you may be able to, since it seems to me that the strongest similarities might lie in Christian-derived new religious movements in East Asia.

It's my understanding that early forms of the NoI were quite unusual/unorthodox relative to much of Islam, but after the death of Elijah Muhammad most of its followers have moved to being more typical Sunni Muslims.

This is correct but misleading. It's true that Warith Deen Mohammed joined conventional Islam along with most of his followers, but in doing so they abandoned the "Nation of Islam" name. The term "Nation of Islam" today refers to the followers of Louis Farrakhan, who actively rejected that move.

My understanding is that even prior to the death of Elijah Muhammad and the major changes that followed, the Nation of Islam provided a path for plenty of individuals to gradually transition to mainstream Islam. Malcolm X is the most prominent example of this. Given how marginal and isolated the contemporary Nation of Islam is, it's hard to imagine it serving such a role now. It's telling that the primary interfaith outreach the Nation of Islam has embarked upon in recent years has been its embrace of Dianetics.

I obviously am not old enough to remember the original Nation of Islam, nor have I interacted with members of the contemporary Nation of Islam, but I can say that American Muslims today do not really consider the Nation of Islam to be even Islam-adjacent (or, for that matter, think much about the Nation of Islam at all). Its beliefs and practices, such as they are, do not bear much relation to any Islamic cultural or theological traditions. Fundamentally this is why I don't think that Nathan's analogy is accurate: Mormonism is descended from Protestantism, but the Nation of Islam is not descended from any sort of Islam.

Wikipedia has this to say about the Nation of Islam's theology:

The sociologist of religion David V. Barrett noted that the Nation's theology is "very distinct" and "extremely detailed."^[19] The Nation provides conflicting statements about its theology; although it professes commitment to the monotheistic idea of a single God, its discourse refers to multiple gods.^[32] These gods are described as being anthropomorphic, taking human form.^[33] In his 1965 book Message to the Black Man, Elijah Muhammad wrote that "God is a man and we just cannot make Him other than a man, lest we make Him an inferior one; for man's intelligence has no equal in other than man. His wisdom is infinite; capable of accomplishing anything that His brain can conceive."^[34]

The NOI teaches that history can be divided into distinct cycles, each ruled by a new god who takes over from his predecessor.^[35] The Nation teaches that none of these gods are immortal, but all die,^[36] at which a new god will take their place.^[37] They believe that the first god consciously took the form of a black man,[38] and the idea of God as a black man is central to its theology.^[39] Each god has different abilities and degrees of power.^[33] The Nation regards its founder, Fard Muhammad, as the latest of these gods,^[40] or "God in person".^[33] They believe that he is the first god to have the same powers as the inaugural god, namely the ability to return the universe to its primordial darkness and then recreate it,^[40] for he has developed the divine capacity innate to black people to the maximum degree.^[37]

The Nation promotes the idea that "God is man and man is God, that God has a presence inside human individuals."^[41] It teaches that the black race, in its natural state, is divine;^[42] collectively, the black race is God,^[43] or a "nation of Gods".^[33] Elijah Muhammad said that "all Muslims are Allahs."^[44] According to its teachings, "knowledge of self" is key for black people to realize their inner divinity.^[45] The NOI thus teaches that by following its teachings, one can recognize one's inner Godliness.^[46] Elijah Muhammad taught that humans could develop parapsychological powers and claimed that he personally had telepathic abilities.^[47] In this, it differs from the mainstream Islamic belief in a fundamental ontological divide between humanity and God;^[42] in mainstream Islam, Allah is always portrayed as eternal and non-anthropomorphic, which is at odds with the theology of the NOI.^[33] Elijah Muhammad taught that there is no spiritual realm, and that the material universe is all that exists.^[48] The NOI does not teach the existence of an afterlife;^[49] Elijah Muhamad wrote that "when you are dead, you are DEAD."^[17]

Wikipedia helpfully observes what anyone with even passing familiarity with Islam can see, which is that these beliefs have no relation to Islam. The most relevant context here is that of black religious movements of the early 20th century, most notably Noble Drew Ali's Moorish Science Temple. (Father Divine's movement in New York, although not a direct predecessor of the Nation of Islam, is also of interest.) The identification by Wallace Fard Muhammad of his movement with Islam can best be understood as an outgrowth of general orientalist interest in Islamicate culture in the West in the early 20th century, combined with a vague identification of Islam with Africa.

The Ahmadis are the Muslim Mormons.

[PSOL]

Now I'll never know if SecularGlobalist recommended my low-effort response to his post. Sad!

The relationship of the Nation of Islam to orthodox Islam strikes me as sort of similar to the relationship of Mormonism to mainstream Christianity--lots of similarities, lots of dissimilarities, and (much as most NOI people would hate having it put this way!) a heaping spoonful of American particularism to make the medicine go down.

I don't like this analogy, in part because there's already a large religious group that has basically the same relationship to mainstream Islam that Mormonism has to mainstream Christianity, with the only exception being that they believe that after the Crucifixion, Jesus went to India rather than America. I can't immediately think of a satisfying analogy, but you may be able to, since it seems to me that the strongest similarities might lie in Christian-derived new religious movements in East Asia.

It's my understanding that early forms of the NoI were quite unusual/unorthodox relative to much of Islam, but after the death of Elijah Muhammad most of its followers have moved to being more typical Sunni Muslims.

This is correct but misleading. It's true that Warith Deen Mohammed joined conventional Islam along with most of his followers, but in doing so they abandoned the "Nation of Islam" name. The term "Nation of Islam" today refers to the followers of Louis Farrakhan, who actively rejected that move.

My understanding is that even prior to the death of Elijah Muhammad and the major changes that followed, the Nation of Islam provided a path for plenty of individuals to gradually transition to mainstream Islam. Malcolm X is the most prominent example of this. Given how marginal and isolated the contemporary Nation of Islam is, it's hard to imagine it serving such a role now. It's telling that the primary interfaith outreach the Nation of Islam has embarked upon in recent years has been its embrace of Dianetics.

I obviously am not old enough to remember the original Nation of Islam, nor have I interacted with members of the contemporary Nation of Islam, but I can say that American Muslims today do not really consider the Nation of Islam to be even Islam-adjacent (or, for that matter, think much about the Nation of Islam at all). Its beliefs and practices, such as they are, do not bear much relation to any Islamic cultural or theological traditions. Fundamentally this is why I don't think that Nathan's analogy is accurate: Mormonism is descended from Protestantism, but the Nation of Islam is not descended from any sort of Islam.

Wikipedia has this to say about the Nation of Islam's theology:

The sociologist of religion David V. Barrett noted that the Nation's theology is "very distinct" and "extremely detailed."^[19] The Nation provides conflicting statements about its theology; although it professes commitment to the monotheistic idea of a single God, its discourse refers to multiple gods.^[32] These gods are described as being anthropomorphic, taking human form.^[33] In his 1965 book Message to the Black Man, Elijah Muhammad wrote that "God is a man and we just cannot make Him other than a man, lest we make Him an inferior one; for man's intelligence has no equal in other than man. His wisdom is infinite; capable of accomplishing anything that His brain can conceive."^[34]

The NOI teaches that history can be divided into distinct cycles, each ruled by a new god who takes over from his predecessor.^[35] The Nation teaches that none of these gods are immortal, but all die,^[36] at which a new god will take their place.^[37] They believe that the first god consciously took the form of a black man,[38] and the idea of God as a black man is central to its theology.^[39] Each god has different abilities and degrees of power.^[33] The Nation regards its founder, Fard Muhammad, as the latest of these gods,^[40] or "God in person".^[33] They believe that he is the first god to have the same powers as the inaugural god, namely the ability to return the universe to its primordial darkness and then recreate it,^[40] for he has developed the divine capacity innate to black people to the maximum degree.^[37]

The Nation promotes the idea that "God is man and man is God, that God has a presence inside human individuals."^[41] It teaches that the black race, in its natural state, is divine;^[42] collectively, the black race is God,^[43] or a "nation of Gods".^[33] Elijah Muhammad said that "all Muslims are Allahs."^[44] According to its teachings, "knowledge of self" is key for black people to realize their inner divinity.^[45] The NOI thus teaches that by following its teachings, one can recognize one's inner Godliness.^[46] Elijah Muhammad taught that humans could develop parapsychological powers and claimed that he personally had telepathic abilities.^[47] In this, it differs from the mainstream Islamic belief in a fundamental ontological divide between humanity and God;^[42] in mainstream Islam, Allah is always portrayed as eternal and non-anthropomorphic, which is at odds with the theology of the NOI.^[33] Elijah Muhammad taught that there is no spiritual realm, and that the material universe is all that exists.^[48] The NOI does not teach the existence of an afterlife;^[49] Elijah Muhamad wrote that "when you are dead, you are DEAD."^[17]

Wikipedia helpfully observes what anyone with even passing familiarity with Islam can see, which is that these beliefs have no relation to Islam. The most relevant context here is that of black religious movements of the early 20th century, most notably Noble Drew Ali's Moorish Science Temple. (Father Divine's movement in New York, although not a direct predecessor of the Nation of Islam, is also of interest.) The identification by Wallace Fard Muhammad of his movement with Islam can best be understood as an outgrowth of general orientalist interest in Islamicate culture in the West in the early 20th century, combined with a vague identification of Islam with Africa.

The Ahmadis are the Muslim Mormons.

And Wallace Fard Muhammad (Real name: Wāli Farad Muhammad) was a Pakistani Ahmadi who came over to the Southern US to work but instead got to preaching with a satirical cover to outsiders.