Two new national Polls - Race essentially tied
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Author Topic: Two new national Polls - Race essentially tied  (Read 2552 times)
The Vorlon
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« on: June 15, 2004, 04:17:18 PM »
« edited: June 16, 2004, 11:18:27 AM by The Vorlon »

A new TIPP/IBD shows:

3 Way Race

Bush 43%
Kerry 40%
Nader 5%

2 Way Race

Bush 44%
Kerry 43%

The "Headline" about a Bush "bump" is not really correct in the associated article.

Last week Bush was up 1% head to head, the same as this week.
Last week he was up 2 with Nader, this week it is 3% - hardly a "bump"...

http://www.investors.com/editorial/issues.asp?v=6/15

A poll conducted for Time Magazine showed

Bush 49%
Kerry 48%

http://i.timeinc.net/time/covers/1101040621/faith_poll/images/poll_04.gif

Time recently "dumped" their long time polling firm (Yankelovich Partners, Inc.) and replaced them with the Harris Organization. -

Yankelovich was brutal - as in LA Times/Bozo the clown bad, but Harris is VERY good.

Who actually did this poll is NOT specified, but I ASSUME it is still Harris.

Two polls from two "Vorlon Recomended Firms" both showing a tie.



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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2004, 09:56:50 PM »

The only problem I can see at this point with the Harris (presumably) results (I could not get the link to show the internals) is that I doubt that there is only three per cent undecided.

I wonder if the phrasing of the question may have pushed respondents to select a candidate when they really hadn't made up their minds?
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Lunar
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2004, 12:53:03 AM »

I see you switched Pennsylvania in your map Vorlon.  That makes me sad Sad

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The Vorlon
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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2004, 09:29:31 AM »
« Edited: June 16, 2004, 09:32:10 AM by The Vorlon »

I see you switched Pennsylvania in your map Vorlon.  That makes me sad Sad



It's tied in Pa.

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Ben.
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« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2004, 10:39:16 AM »

Vorlon.

Am I right to think that a challenger will usually have a poll boost and then see their numbers go down against a late rally for the incumbent in most races?

Personally I’m pretty convinced that Bush will see the economy continue to improve (however shaky the foundation of the recovery) and in Iraq a semblance of stability may also emerge… So I still expect a Bush win.
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The Vorlon
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« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2004, 11:11:08 AM »
« Edited: June 16, 2004, 11:21:46 AM by The Vorlon »

Vorlon.

Am I right to think that a challenger will usually have a poll boost and then see their numbers go down against a late rally for the incumbent in most races?

Personally I’m pretty convinced that Bush will see the economy continue to improve (however shaky the foundation of the recovery) and in Iraq a semblance of stability may also emerge… So I still expect a Bush win.


The data on if an incumbant or the challenger gets the late break of voters is mixed enough, that I would be reluctant to make ANY sweeping generalizations.

The breaking of the undecided is really a bit overstated.  The REAL choice that underlies late changes in the polls is the decision to actually vote, versus the actual change in whom a person leans towards in terms of preference.

As an example:

These are the results of the 2000 Presidential exits polls:

Decided in the Last Three Days => Voted for Gore 48% Bush 46%

Decided in the last week => Gore 48% Bush 45%

Decided in the last month => Gore 49% Bush 45 %

Decided more than a month in Advance => Bush 50% - Gore 48%

Certainly an advantage for Gore in the late deciders, but hardly a stampede of any magnitude.

The other HUGE unknown in this election is that voters seem, by all measures, to be paying far more attention than in the past - in terms of voters being "tuned in" the calender says June, but the numbers say Late October.

Somethng I am personally really watching is how big a "bounce" each candidate gets from their conventions.

Typically, the bounce is "about" 10% as previously tuned out voters wake up and realize there is an election going on.

If indeed the voters are as tuned in as we think they are, the bounces for both candidates should be much much smaller than is typical.

Your view on the economy and iraq vis a vie the election is basically correct.

If the economy keeps cranking out 300,000 jobs a month, Bush certainly has an advantage.

If Iraq blows up all to hell, Kerry certainly gains.

Iraq is a big problem for Bush that extends beyond Iraw in that is also drowns out all the good economic news,

Normally 947,000 in 3 months would get front page coverage, because of Iraq it gets put "below the fold" as they say in the newspaper business.

My own view is that taken in totality, Kerry has a very modest overall advantage in this race, but it is very slight.  The solidity of Bush's base, combined with some sofftness in Kerry's base buys him time and tactical flexibility to campaign hard to get back enough independants to win.

In terms of current voter preference, Bush currently has a very modest lead, but Kerry still has an "extra" card to play in terms of a VP pick.

The race remains too close to call.

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Blue Rectangle
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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2004, 12:04:11 PM »

Is the conventional wisdom that last-minute deciders break in favor of challengers, or in favor of democrats? Maybe some of both?
I'm encouraged by the small margins you quoted for 2000, but Bush was the challenger and Gore the democrat.  I'm worried that the numbers this round will show a larger margin in favor of Kerry (being both).
Also, on the issue of the economy helping Bush I have to be a little pessimistic.  A bad economy is a big issue, but a good economy draws little press or interest among voters.  Bush could see improvements on people trusting him with the economy, but less people willing to vote for him because of it.
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The Vorlon
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2004, 12:17:16 PM »
« Edited: June 16, 2004, 12:24:04 PM by The Vorlon »

Is the conventional wisdom that last-minute deciders break in favor of challengers, or in favor of democrats? Maybe some of both?
I'm encouraged by the small margins you quoted for 2000, but Bush was the challenger and Gore the democrat.  I'm worried that the numbers this round will show a larger margin in favor of Kerry (being both).
Also, on the issue of the economy helping Bush I have to be a little pessimistic.  A bad economy is a big issue, but a good economy draws little press or interest among voters.  Bush could see improvements on people trusting him with the economy, but less people willing to vote for him because of it.

There have been two major studies that I have personally read on this topic, one from about 1990, and the other from about 2002 or so.

I looked for them on the internet, but could not find them, so I am going from memory here.  If you do find the studies, and I am off a few percentage points.. don't shoot me.. Smiley

I am confident I remember the "broad strokes" pretty accurately, but the percentages might be off a tad here and there...

There was a study done back in 1990 (?) or so which did a simple anaylsis of what the polls said before the election and what the actual results were.

This study concluded that about 80% (+/-) of the time the challeneger did indeed do better than the polls suggested, about 10% of the time the polls were right, and 10% of the time the incumbant did better than expected.

This study had a number of flaws however.  Untill about 1990 or so, Republicans historically underpolled a bit - on average by about 4% or so.  This combined with the fact that until the 1990s the Democrats held a crushing advantage in the number of state, local, and congressional seats badly distorted the data.

Because the Dems were overwhelmingly the incumbants, and the GOP systematically underpolled, if just looked like the "break" was mostly to the challenger.

When this bias was corrected for in later studies, the "break to the challenger effect" was dramatically diminished, but certainly still there.

After correcting the data for the systemic anti-GOP bias the ratio was that about 55% of the time the challenger did better than expected, about 25% of the time there was no break, and about 20% of the time the break was towards the incumbant.

It should be remembered that, due to random error in the polls, the "normal" result would be 33/33/33 if there was no "break" effect. (A challenger would, due to random chance, underpoll as often as he/she overpolled)

The study also went a bit further and in an utterly arbitrary way divided election races into two categories - Close (under 10% lead shown in the polls) and not close (Over 10% lead shown in the polls)

There is a fairly stong effect where in a one-sided race, the challenger does better than expected.  It is fairly common to see somebody go into an election with a 30% lead and then win by "only" 19% as a bunch of his/her supporters stay home on election day.  This appears to impact Democrat incumbants a bit more the GOP incumbants, but the gap is not huge.

This is what happened in 1996 - most polls had Clinton beating Dole by 12% or better when the actual result was about 8% - CBS News Polling for example missed this election rather badly having Clinton up by 18% when the actual result was about 8%

A lot of Democrats stayed home, while Republicans went to the polls to protect their hold on the House & Senate.

Within the "close" races, the "break to the challenger" effect was still there, but slightly reduced again. - About 45% of the time the Challenger did better than expected, about 30% of the time there was no break, and about 25% of the time the incumbant did a bit better than expected.

The average "break" at the end was about the same size for both incumbants and challengers and averaged a bit over 3%.

In 1980 most polls had Reagan up just a bit - he ended up blowing out Carter.

1n 2002 Colorado Senator Wayne Allard was (at best) even in the polls and ended up winning by 5%

There are tons of examples of the break going both ways, on balance the challenger does seem to get the break a bit more often, but it is not so overwhelming a trend that you can "bank" on it.

In 1976 Ford was clearly closing the gap on carter, even an an incumbant.

In 1980 most polls had Reagan up just a bit - he ended up blowing out Carter.

In 1992 Bush was clearly closing on Clinton, even as an incumbant.

In 1996 Dole was making up some ground as the challenger at the end...

In 2000 Gore was clearly closing on Bush as the (semi) incumbant.

No clear pattern at the Presidential level IMHO.

Summary:

Looking a non-presidential races - A bit under half the time there is an (on average) 3+ % break to the challenger at the end.

About 1/4 of the time there is a 3+ % break to the incumbant.

About 1/4 of the time there is no break at all.

Hope this helps!
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2004, 12:28:58 PM »

Vorlon,

I was unable to see the internals on the Time poll.


As I previously noted, it seems to me to be highly unlikely that only three per cent of the respondents are undecideds.

How was the preference question worded (do you know)?
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Rococo4
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« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2004, 08:22:08 PM »

hmmmmmm

havent seen these results all over the news.  i wonder why?
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The Vorlon
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« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2004, 09:19:53 PM »

hmmmmmm

havent seen these results all over the news.  i wonder why?

Because TIPP, (Bush +3) Ipsos (Bush +1) and Harris/Time (Bush +1) are all members of the vast right wing conspiricy and connect be trusted.

Polls like the LA Times and CBS are far more reliable and thus should be widely circulated
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2004, 09:58:34 PM »

I noticed you did not respond to my earlier point.

What, are you offended that I had something disparaging to say about a Gallup poll?

Gallup has made mistakes in the past (including when it was called the American Index of Public Opinion), and will undoubtedly make mistakes in the future.

When I see a nationwide poll with less than 800 respondents I immediately get suspicious, not only because of sample size, but because national polls with fewer than 800 respondents (in my experience) typically have other problems, which are not as often encountered in polls of a larger size.
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The Vorlon
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« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2004, 10:20:30 PM »

I noticed you did not respond to my earlier point.

What, are you offended that I had something disparaging to say about a Gallup poll?

Gallup has made mistakes in the past (including when it was called the American Index of Public Opinion), and will undoubtedly make mistakes in the future.

When I see a nationwide poll with less than 800 respondents I immediately get suspicious, not only because of sample size, but because national polls with fewer than 800 respondents (in my experience) typically have other problems, which are not as often encountered in polls of a larger size.

Nope - don't get offended.. life is waaaay too short Smiley

I saw your post, but can't reply because I don't have the details yet - when I do, I will post them Smiley

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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2004, 11:19:01 PM »

Thanks for the reply.

It also seems to me that Kerry's style will not wear well with traditional Democrats.

His two modes appear to be the genuine one (rich liberal) who bores his audience to death (I know a major Democrat who stated that if Kerry gave a fireside chat, the fire would die), and a patheric attempt to talk like a 'regular guy' (remember his crude comment about Republicans beeing so dishonest).

Finally, I still say that Kerry has a real problem in that his long Senate record is ultraliberal, and his recent policy statements do not mesh well with his record.  That is to say, which Kerry would you get if you elected him?
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