CBS/NYTimes Poll shocker - Kerry in lead!
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  CBS/NYTimes Poll shocker - Kerry in lead!
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Author Topic: CBS/NYTimes Poll shocker - Kerry in lead!  (Read 1341 times)
The Vorlon
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« on: April 28, 2004, 07:20:34 PM »
« edited: April 29, 2004, 09:32:17 AM by The Vorlon »

Kerry +2 among registered voters. wo/Nader
Bush +2 among registered voters with Nader

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/28/opinion/polls/main614605.shtml

Here is a link to the internals, if you need some comic relief...

These guys are soooooo bad I don't know if I should laugh or cry...

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/CBSNews_polls/042804_poll.pdf

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The Duke
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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2004, 07:23:03 PM »

I've never held CBS in very high regard.  Maybe I'm wrong, but this is a registered voter poll not a likely voter poll and I think I recall CBS being a little less tahn reliable.
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The Vorlon
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« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2004, 07:28:29 PM »
« Edited: April 28, 2004, 07:51:59 PM by The Vorlon »

I've never held CBS in very high regard.  Maybe I'm wrong, but this is a registered voter poll not a likely voter poll and I think I recall CBS being a little less tahn reliable.

The thread title (CBS News shocker!)...was...sarcasm...

Here is a cut and paste from a thread with Shapeshifter..




A poll has two types of error.

Systematic error:

Systematic error is when there is just something "wrong" with the way the poll is constructed.  

Probably the most common type in here is an improperly drawn sample.

To pick on one of the polls I love to hate, CBS news does somethng structually, fundementally wrong in that they use pure simple "random digit dialing" to get their 1000 or so phone numbers.

What is so bad about this you may ask....?

In a "perfect" sample ever VOTER (not phone number) would have an equal chance of being contacted.

Married couples (ie two votes) tend to have one phone number.

Single people living alone also tend to have one phone number.

Married people break strongly for the GOP, while singles break strongly for the Dems.

Because the ONE single voter has ONE phone line, while the TWO married voters have ONE phoneline, the single voter is twice as likely to be contacted as the married voter..

So CBS news structuarally, inherently, as a matter of poll design, has twice the chance of reaching single people (a strongly pro Democratic voting block) as they do of reaching married people (a strongly pro GOP block)

Guess what - CBS polls always wildly favor the Democrats... this is not a fluke... it is a structural flaw with their poll...

Of course this is a huge over simplification, in reality you have to take into account "second" lines for the teenagers, cell phones, etc... but the illistration is valid...

(Enroll in "Advanced Polling 623" - "how to draw a representative phone sample" - for more information)

A second structural error is a bad or biased question wording.

The classic example of this is the pro life / pro choice polling. (A poll that is, IMHO, just about impossible to do accurately)

For example a question asking if you :

"Favored the continued state funded and sactioned slaughter of unborn children"

will likely produce a somewhat different result that asking:

"Should the oppressive authority of the state be used to force women against their will to bear children"

Both of the above are examples of structural or systemic error.

Random Error

The second type is just "random" error due to sampling, it has not bias that favors one side over the other.

If you flip 100 coins in the air you don't get 50 heads and 50 tails, you usually get 53/47 or something like that, the result is no more likely to favor heads than tails.

Lets use an example of a poll that is 53% for A, and 47% for B with a margin of error of +/- 3%

There is a 68% chance that "A" is between 51.5 and 54.5%

There is a 68% chance that "B" is between 45.5% and 48.5%%

In this example, there is a 95% chance A is between 50 and 56%, with a similar 95% chance "B" is between 44% and 50%

As a very rough rule of thumb, if the "gap" between candidate A and B is less than half of the margin of error the two are pretty much tied.

If A beats B by more than 1/2 the MOE A is likely ahead by a bit

If A beats B by more than the MOE you can be pretty sure they are ahead... 19 times out of 20 anyway.. Cheesy

Typically, Systemic errors, in all but the very best polls, are larger than random errors.

Systemic errors are why there are University polls showing Bush +4 in New Jersey.

This concludes the introductory lession of Polling 101 - are they any questions...?

Cheesy
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agcatter
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« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2004, 07:57:27 PM »

When was the last CBS poll before this one taken and what did it show?
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The Vorlon
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« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2004, 08:01:57 PM »

When was the last CBS poll before this one taken and what did it show?

Kerry +5 in last one.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/02/opinion/polls/main609944.shtml
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agcatter
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« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2004, 09:20:19 PM »

What is the significance of this poll being registered voters as opposed to likely voters?  Seems as though Republicans somehow seem to fare slightly better among likely voters in most polls.  True or am I just making a generalization that's not really true?
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The Duke
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« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2004, 09:42:25 PM »

That is true.  I'm not sure why, but Likely voter polls usually show Republicans doing better.  They are also more accurate, for obvious reasons.
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Giant Saguaro
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« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2004, 09:43:07 PM »

46% approval seems to be a pretty sizable drop, but this is NY Times/CBS.

I'm thinking Bush's approval could rise to the 53-55 range if we let the Marines and combat forces go on the offense (instead of the defense) with more consistency for a change in Iraq. Take the fight to them, aka more action and less standing around waiting for everyone to give up. I wonder if there are any numbers on this?
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2004, 03:38:50 AM »

That is true.  I'm not sure why, but Likely voter polls usually show Republicans doing better.  They are also more accurate, for obvious reasons.

Republicans=typically more affluent than Democrats=More likely to vote
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The Vorlon
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« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2004, 06:12:47 AM »

What is the significance of this poll being registered voters as opposed to likely voters?  Seems as though Republicans somehow seem to fare slightly better among likely voters in most polls.  True or am I just making a generalization that's not really true?

about 55% of people actually vote.

Here is a real "tough" question....

Will your poll be more accurate if you talk to the 55% who actually vote, or include everybody... including the 45% who don't vote..?

duh.....

GOP candidates typically do "about" 3% better among "likely" voters than just "registered" voters.

Dave does have enough space on his server for me to detail everything that is wrong with CBS polling....
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