Charles Koch agrees with Bernie Sanders on something

[ElectionsGuy]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-koch-this-is-the-one-issue-where-bernie-sanders-is-right/2016/02/18/cdd2c228-d5c1-11e5-be55-2cc3c1e4b76b_story.html

I encourage you to read the whole thing, its a good read for anyone to clarify what the Kochs are actually in favor of, but especially for those who immediately think KOCHS = DEVIL INCARNATE BILLIONAIRE CLASS GREEDY SELFISH HUMAN GARBAGE, or whatever.

[YaBoyNY]

I mean, yes, a wrong clock is still correct twice a day.

[This account no longer in use.]

Didn't expect that. Still not a fan of the Kochs.

[Mehmentum]

What Koch is doing here is actually very clever.  He's taken Sanders' left win 'the system is rigged against the little guy' and turning it into an argument for conservatism.

Basically he's saying "Sanders is right, the system is rigged.  The government is picking winners and losers with handouts and subsidies.  We need smaller government in order to level the playing field."

[Antonio the Sixth]

What Koch is doing here is actually very clever.  He's taken Sanders' left win 'the system is rigged against the little guy' and turning it into an argument for conservatism.

Basically he's saying "Sanders is right, the system is rigged.  The government is picking winners and losers with handouts and subsidies.  We need smaller government in order to level the playing field."

Ie, the same old bullsh*t conservatives have been selling Americans for three decades as an excuse to give the rich another tax cut.

Thankfully Bernie is doing a great job debunking it.

[Beet]

Articles like this show that conservatives are in trouble. When a guy like Koch has to hide his tea party ideology buried under a mountain of liberal rhetoric.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

There's no agreement there.

[Averroës Nix]

What Koch is doing here is actually very clever.  He's taken Sanders' left win 'the system is rigged against the little guy' and turning it into an argument for conservatism.

Basically he's saying "Sanders is right, the system is rigged.  The government is picking winners and losers with handouts and subsidies.  We need smaller government in order to level the playing field."

How is that clever? This argument has been a linchpin of Republican politics for decades.

[Mehmentum]

What Koch is doing here is actually very clever.  He's taken Sanders' left win 'the system is rigged against the little guy' and turning it into an argument for conservatism.

Basically he's saying "Sanders is right, the system is rigged.  The government is picking winners and losers with handouts and subsidies.  We need smaller government in order to level the playing field."

How is that clever? This argument has been a linchpin of Republican politics for decades.

The clever part is that he's co-opting Sanders' message.  Look at some of the responses in this thread.  Liberal posters agreeing with what he's saying, even though he's advocating the exact same conservative positions, just re-framing them to 'address' the issue's Sanders is bringing up.

[Antonio the Sixth]

What Koch is doing here is actually very clever.  He's taken Sanders' left win 'the system is rigged against the little guy' and turning it into an argument for conservatism.

Basically he's saying "Sanders is right, the system is rigged.  The government is picking winners and losers with handouts and subsidies.  We need smaller government in order to level the playing field."

How is that clever? This argument has been a linchpin of Republican politics for decades.

The clever part is that he's co-opting Sanders' message.  Look at some of the responses in this thread.  Liberal posters agreeing with what he's saying, even though he's advocating the exact same conservative positions, just re-framing them to 'address' the issue's Sanders is bringing up.

NYMillennial and Smith aren't exactly representative of "forum Liberals".

[Taco Truck 🚚]

for those who immediately think KOCHS = DEVIL INCARNATE BILLIONAIRE CLASS GREEDY SELFISH HUMAN GARBAGE, or whatever.

That's exactly what I thought after reading that article.  When you realize the article is written by a man who hit a home run by being born on third it turns your stomach.

We can do the math.  Let's see in a world where all regulations are removed who is going to do stupendously well a poor black woman with no money or the 6th richest man in the world who inherited his money?

So you want your taxes slashed and all regulations you view as "burdensome" removed and in exchange you will give up ethanol subsidies?  You saint!

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Now let's see what the Heritage foundation says about the war on poverty...

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http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/09/understanding-poverty-in-the-united-states-surprising-facts-about-americas-poor

Uhh... so is the war on poverty making people's lives better or worse?  Sounds like conservatives are talking out of both sides of their @$$holes.

Can't have it both ways guys.  Republicans huddle up and get your lie straight.

[Adam Griffin]

He's acknowledging the problem. He's trying to pretend that he isn't part of it. Who cares if he says business interests are meddling in every facet of government, when he himself is doing it? Congratulations to him for not taking ethanol subsidies. There are plenty of other areas in which he and others use their money and influence to subsidize their businesses - usually in the form of cutting their taxes.

When you have a deficit, cutting revenue (taxes) is not "small government": it's tax spending. He is just as guilty by getting government to put more money in his pocket through tax cuts as others are guilty by getting government to put more money in their pockets through subsidies.

He is using outsized influence to get what he wants all the same, and he maintains the privilege of not being an ideological hypocrite in the process.

At the end of the day, he is just as bad as the rest of them and his network of meddling surpasses practically any other single entity, and is probably only rivaled in broader industry terms by that of pharmaceuticals and financial institutions. Screw him.

[Mehmentum]

My point is, using the logic your opponent uses to support your own position is often a very powerful argument.

For example, my favorite argument in favor of gay marriage was using religious freedom (i.e. churches should be free to marry who they wish, in accordance with their religious beliefs), because it used one of conservatives' main arguments against gay marriage (that it was somehow violating their religious freedom) against them.

Koch is advocating the exact same positions he's always had.  But he's framing it differently.  He's using progressives' own rhetoric: that the game is rigged by the 1%, to advocate it.

Now, obviously he's wrong (well, lying).  The Koch's proposals would make income inequality worse.  But I wasn't trying to argue that he was right, just that it was a clever way of presenting his argument.

[Averroës Nix]

He's acknowledging the problem. He's trying to pretend that he isn't part of it. Who cares if he says business interests are meddling in every facet of government, when he himself is doing it? Congratulations to him for not taking ethanol subsidies. There are plenty of other areas in which he and others use their money and influence to subsidize their businesses - usually in the form of cutting their taxes.

When you have a deficit, cutting revenue (taxes) is not "small government": it's tax spending. He is just as guilty by getting government to put more money in his pocket through tax cuts as others are guilty by getting government to put more money in their pockets through subsidies.

He is using outsized influence to get what he wants all the same, and he maintains the privilege of not being an ideological hypocrite in the process.

At the end of the day, he is just as bad as the rest of them and his network of meddling surpasses practically any other single entity, and is probably only rivaled in broader industry terms by that of pharmaceuticals and financial institutions. Screw him.

This was my reaction as well. All of the fuss about the Kochs' ideology conceals that most of their political work is just a highly aggressive form of the sort of interest-driven politics that the Kochs have always been very aggressive in (publicly) deploring...

[Adam Griffin]

He's acknowledging the problem. He's trying to pretend that he isn't part of it. Who cares if he says business interests are meddling in every facet of government, when he himself is doing it? Congratulations to him for not taking ethanol subsidies. There are plenty of other areas in which he and others use their money and influence to subsidize their businesses - usually in the form of cutting their taxes.

When you have a deficit, cutting revenue (taxes) is not "small government": it's tax spending. He is just as guilty by getting government to put more money in his pocket through tax cuts as others are guilty by getting government to put more money in their pockets through subsidies.

He is using outsized influence to get what he wants all the same, and he maintains the privilege of not being an ideological hypocrite in the process.

At the end of the day, he is just as bad as the rest of them and his network of meddling surpasses practically any other single entity, and is probably only rivaled in broader industry terms by that of pharmaceuticals and financial institutions. Screw him.

This was my reaction as well. All of the fuss about the Kochs' ideology conceals that most of their political work is just a highly aggressive form of the sort of interest-driven politics that the Kochs have always been very aggressive in (publicly) deploring...

Oh look what just popped up in my newsfeed:

[Admiral Kizaru]

What next? Lloyd Blankfein agreeing with Bernie Sanders about Wall Street excesses?

[Virginiá]

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/09/understanding-poverty-in-the-united-states-surprising-facts-about-americas-poor

Uhh... so is the war on poverty making people's lives better or worse?  Sounds like conservatives are talking out of both sides of their @$$holes.

Can't have it both ways guys.  Republicans huddle up and get your lie straight.

Pretty clever, too. They are trying to redefine 'poor' so that they can say inequality isn't as bad as people think, and that deregulation and tax cuts for the wealthy definitely won't be bad! Also, since they are not really poor, taking a chainsaw to the social safety net will be good for the country!

Seriously, though, I think you were spot on here:

We can do the math.  Let's see in a world where all regulations are removed who is going to do stupendously well a poor black woman with no money or the 6th richest man in the world who inherited his money?

With that in mind, it's pretty clear why they want all those tax cuts and deregulation so badly. They think that because they were willing and able to ruthlessly accumulate wealth at any cost and were successful at it, that they should have no rules and get the best treatment, because, jobs? wealth redistribution (lol)? That seems to have been the best excuse of late, "jobs", like, let's give these rich people job creators more benefits/tax breaks so they will throw the people a part time, low paying job once in awhile.

I'm so glad that after 30+ years of Reaganism, this country is finally turning hard against these people and organizations.

[Figueira]

Welp, clearly Sanders is in the pocket of the Koch brothers. We need a new progressive hero. Can we convince Lessig to jump back in?

[Nyvin]

The Koch's want Sanders to win because they think he'll be easier to beat in the General....duh.

[Zioneer]

Notice how he doesn't even mention campaign finance issues, which allow him to dump untold millions of dollars into any campaign or legislation he wants. I.E., one of the major issues Sanders is running on.

[IceSpear]

I'm sure they both agree on wanting Bernie Sanders to be the Democratic nominee.