Sex offenders get Viagra paid for by Medicaid

[Filuwaúrdjan]

If a married man visits a prostitute, his wife is the victim.
I've no intention of starting an abortion flame war, but a lot of people think there *is* a victim as a result of an abortion.

[A18]

Then outlaw married men visiting prostitutes, and leave everyone else alone.

[Ebowed]

There is no victim - no individual citizen who subjectively objects - in either prostitution or abortion.

Yes, there is.  Both acts result in dehumanization of a human being; in one case, taking away the right to live from a human before its birth, and in the other case, reducing a human being to a sex object that serves only to give other humans cheap thrills.  And if that doesn't convince you (of course it wouldn't, since you don't believe humans have any value in the first place), prostitution should still remain illegal for health issues, if nothing else.

[angus]

Ok, this should raise another question - why is ANYONE receiving Viagra, ect. on Medicaid or Medicare? Now, everyone knows I think that these two programs shouldn't exist, but that's besides the point. The purpose of these programs was to make necessary medicine affordable to those who can not afford them - drugs that ensure that you stay living, not luxury drugs like Viagra. If these programs must exist they should only provide what is necessary, not what is a luxury.

you are the most ideologically consistent poster here, and I always enjoy your rants.  that said, you gotta admit the story is more humorous than offensive.  I smell a South Park episode in the making.

[Redefeatbush04]

Bono posts yet another silly 'shock the bourgeosie' story.  Relax people, lets just give viagra to whoever needs it, and stop with this police-state nonsense of calling some people 'sex offenders'.

The government shouldn't be spending taxpayer money so men can have boners

^ exactly my thoughts. It is even more ridiculous that we are spending taxpayer money so sex offenders can have boners that they can use to rape little children.

No one should get viagra from the government, but especially not people with this kind of history. Frankly, these people should be left to starve in their prison cells.

And yes, opebo, having sex with a 12 year old girl should be illegal.

The only way sex offenders, or anybody else, should have viagra paid for is if it is necessary for procreation; medicaid should cover only necessary medical expenses.  I do not think they should be left to starve in prison cells Philip lol....."these people" deserve a second chance. Yes Opebo....12 is a wee bit too young but I understand your logic. You believe that once they enter puberty they are fair game and I respect that. But dude that is just sick - these kids are sexually mature enough but not mentally mature enough. Wait until they are 15 or 16.

[opebo]

Why should the most baseborn of people be given non-essential sex-enhancing 'medications' for free when it's obvious that, given their offenses, they don't NEED sex enhancement?

What do you mean 'baseborn'?  I assume you are referring to their low-working class origins?

In any case, they probably need the sex enhancement to get it up with the unattractive women of their own age group, after having been spoiled by the nubile.

[opebo]

If a married man visits a prostitute, his wife is the victim.

What garbage.  His visits to a prostitute have nothing to do with his wife.  Is marriage slavery?

Besides, even if the shrew objects, who are we, or the State, to get involved?  Good lord, you seem to want the Police to micromanage every minute aspect of a person's life!

[Jake]

Of course, it wouldn't be wrong at all for the wife to stab her husband in his sleep if he was cheating on her?

[Redefeatbush04]

Of course, it wouldn't be wrong at all for the wife to stab her husband in his sleep if he was cheating on her?

Your a violent violent man jake

[opebo]

There is no victim - no individual citizen who subjectively objects - in either prostitution or abortion.

Yes, there is.  Both acts result in dehumanization of a human being; in one case, taking away the right to live from a human before its birth, and in the other case, reducing a human being to a sex object that serves only to give other humans cheap thrills.

You blind prude!  Can't you see that all jobs humiliate and dehumanize people?  Why do you believe that sex makes this process worse?  I know - because you're a prude who thinks sex is the worst thing that can happen to a woman.   Here's a news flash (I admit I've always been skeptical myself), but apparentely some of them enjoy it!  Of course, turning even your favorite thing into work ruins it, but still it beats working in Walmart or McDonalds or some such nightmare job.  And best of all you might be able to actually live on the pay.

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That is a nonsensical argument, since illegality does not entirely eliminate prostitution - rather, it greatly increases the dangers to both prostitute and customer, both in terms of physical attack and unsafe sex.  Legalization would greatly increase the safety level.

[opebo]

Of course, it wouldn't be wrong at all for the wife to stab her husband in his sleep if he was cheating on her?

Yes, it would, you violent.  All she has to do is get up and walk away.  Most marriages should be dissolved anyway - such a nasty institution.

[opebo]

Why should the most baseborn of people be given non-essential sex-enhancing 'medications' for free when it's obvious that, given their offenses, they don't NEED sex enhancement?

What do you mean 'baseborn'?  I assume you are referring to their low-working class origins?

In any case, they probably need the sex enhancement to get it up with the unattractive women of their own age group, after having been spoiled by the nubile.

I won't even bother making a long reply. If you rape someone, you're baseborn. Too bad.

Is 'baseborn' some term used by the religious?  It seems archaic and curious.

[Jake]

LOL, I'm a prude, an intolerent, a religious, and now a violent

[opebo]

LOL, I'm a prude, an intolerent, a religious, and now a violent

Those groups are almost entirely overlapping. 

[Ebowed]

You blind prude!  Can't you see that all jobs humiliate and dehumanize people?

No.  A lot of people enjoy their jobs.  With they way things are going today, the amount of people who work in something they like is rapidly decreasing.

Why do you believe that sex makes this process worse?

You treat sex as some sort of animal act.  You've probably had sex so many times that all it is for you is cheap thrills, but it's something special; it's more than that.  A job involving sex isn't the same thing as being a cashier.

I know - because you're a prude who thinks sex is the worst thing that can happen to a woman.

No, I don't.  I do not believe that at all.  Sex can be one of the greatest things that can ever happen to a person, given that it is practiced in the correct context.  It means nothing to you because you have to pay for it, you loser.

Here's a news flash (I admit I've always been skeptical myself), but apparentely some of them enjoy it!

Prostitutes likely do not enjoy their job; they find it demeaning and as a way to get just as much money as is needed to fit their lifestyle.  Women who enjoy sex shouldn't have to sell themselves for it, don't you think?

Of course, turning even your favorite thing into work ruins it, but still it beats working in Walmart or McDonalds or some such nightmare job.  And best of all you might be able to actually live on the pay.

I can assure you that working at some sh**thole like McDonald's is better than screwing old and unattractive men who can't get laid anywhere else.

That is a nonsensical argument, since illegality does not entirely eliminate prostitution - rather, it greatly increases the dangers to both prostitute and customer, both in terms of physical attack and unsafe sex.  Legalization would greatly increase the safety level.

Sounds like the overused "do you want to send women to the backalleys?" argument people use when they're losing a debate about abortion.  The point of keeping prostitution illegal isn't to make it safe, but to make it as rare as possible.  And even if the government decriminalized it, how can you expect such a seedy career to stay safe?  Do you plan on the government interfering with this?  I wouldn't be surprised if you supported socialized prostitution.  My point is, I don't care if people will do it anyway-- legalizing it will encourage people to do it.  I could say that rape should stay legal because people are going to do it anyway, but I don't see you agreeing to that.  And don't give me your "victimless crime" garbage.

[opebo]

You blind prude!  Can't you see that all jobs humiliate and dehumanize people?

No.  A lot of people enjoy their jobs.  With they way things are going today, the amount of people who work in something they like is rapidly decreasing.

I have never actually met a real person who enjoyed their job, though I can say that most prostitutes greatly prefer their professions to the alternative ones (which is obviously why they chose it).  Honestly in asia running off to be a prostitute in the beach resorts is the most freeing, exciting thing that can happen to a young woman from a boring, stultifying village of oppressive relations and poverty.  It is tremendously fun, and while some of the men are actually quite attractive, even the unattractive ones are well worth the empowered lifestyle these women gain.

Why do you believe that sex makes this process worse?

You treat sex as some sort of animal act.  You've probably had sex so many times that all it is for you is cheap thrills, but it's something special; it's more than that.  A job involving sex isn't the same thing as being a cashier.

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No, it is much better.  Easier, more fun, better paid.

Here's a news flash (I admit I've always been skeptical myself), but apparentely some of them enjoy it!

Prostitutes likely do not enjoy their job; they find it demeaning and as a way to get just as much money as is needed to fit their lifestyle.

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They obviously find their profession preferrable to the alteratives.   In countries where it is legal or tolerated it is incredibly easy and lucrative.

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They don't have to, they choose to. 

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Nope, working at McDonalds is much, much more unpleasant, far more humiliating, and to top it off pays a fraction of prostitution.  Interestingly, most customers of prostitutes do not differ from the male population at large - there are old, young, good-looking, and ugly guys all represented.  What you fail to understand about purchasing sex is that men don't only do it because they can't get sex elsewhere, they do it because purchased sex is far more pleasant and in the long run cheaper.

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If you don't require a victim for your crimes, I suppose you can make anything illegal.  Why not adultery?  Anal or oral sex?  Drinking alcohol?  You are a freedom-hating prude.. you might as well embrace it.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

His visits to a prostitute have nothing to do with his wife. 

Yes it does

[opebo]

His visits to a prostitute have nothing to do with his wife. 

Yes it does

http://www.nomarriage.com/

[Ebowed]

I have never actually met a real person who enjoyed their job,

That's because of the people you hang out with.

...though I can say that most prostitutes greatly prefer their professions to the alternative ones (which is obviously why they chose it).

You get prostitutes in foreign countries where less jobs are available.  Also, I doubt that they really do prefer their "profession" to alternatives; they have just blocked their guilt out of their mind.

Honestly in asia running off to be a prostitute in the beach resorts is the most freeing, exciting thing that can happen to a young woman from a boring, stultifying village of oppressive relations and poverty.

Again, that's because it's in Asia, and even then, that still does not make prostitution right. 

It is tremendously fun, and while some of the men are actually quite attractive, even the unattractive ones are well worth the empowered lifestyle these women gain.

Women don't gain an "empowered lifestyle" by sucking men's cocks for money.  I hate to break it to you.

No, it is much better.  Easier, more fun, better paid.

The question is, Opebo, what if everyone thought like you?  If regular people believed prostitution was "easier" and "more fun," there wouldn't be anyone to make your bedsheets, your food, or the hotels you sleep in.

They obviously find their profession preferrable to the alteratives.   In countries where it is legal or tolerated it is incredibly easy and lucrative.

Again, this does not make it right.  Rather than screwing men for money, they could try and change the awkward societies they live in and not die as forgotten whores.

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They don't have to, they choose to.

Their choices are wrong, in that case.  Also, I still stand by my comment: women who enjoy sex shouldn't have to sell themselves for it.

Nope, working at McDonalds is much, much more unpleasant, far more humiliating, and to top it off pays a fraction of prostitution.

Being an assassin also pays better than McDonald's but I don't see you advocating that.

Interestingly, most customers of prostitutes do not differ from the male population at large - there are old, young, good-looking, and ugly guys all represented.  What you fail to understand about purchasing sex is that men don't only do it because they can't get sex elsewhere, they do it because purchased sex is far more pleasant and in the long run cheaper.

Paying for sex is absolutely not more pleasant than free sex, but since that's all you can get, I can understand your warped and delusional reasoning.  But get this -- prostitution is cheaper than free sex?  Genius.  Absolutely genius.

If you don't require a victim for your crimes, I suppose you can make anything illegal.  Why not adultery?  Anal or oral sex?  Drinking alcohol?  You are a freedom-hating prude.. you might as well embrace it.

Adultery is a breach of contract and should therefore be illegal.  I would oppose making anal and oral sex as well as alcohol consumption illegal.  I take every issue on a case by case basis, so I don't see how you could call me a "freedom hating prude" based on my stance on prostitution.  For example, I favor decriminalizing marijuana and hard drugs, which is a far more liberal stance than that of most people.  Also, I notice you completely ignored this section of my post (except for the last sentence, which I have conveniently bolded for you):

Sounds like the overused "do you want to send women to the backalleys?" argument people use when they're losing a debate about abortion.  The point of keeping prostitution illegal isn't to make it safe, but to make it as rare as possible.  And even if the government decriminalized it, how can you expect such a seedy career to stay safe?  Do you plan on the government interfering with this?  I wouldn't be surprised if you supported socialized prostitution.  My point is, I don't care if people will do it anyway-- legalizing it will encourage people to do it.  I could say that rape should stay legal because people are going to do it anyway, but I don't see you agreeing to that.  And don't give me your "victimless crime" garbage.

If you've lost an argument, at least have the guts to admit so; don't just ignore it.

[John Dibble]

I have never actually met a real person who enjoyed their job,

That's because of the people you hang out with.

Quite right. I enjoy my job. My mom enjoys her job. Neither of us are humiliated.

[opebo]

I have never actually met a real person who enjoyed their job,

That's because of the people you hang out with.

Hah, people smart enough to realize work sucks?  I think that is not so uncommon.

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You get prostitutes in foreign countries where less jobs are available.  Also, I doubt that they really do prefer their "profession" to alternatives; they have just blocked their guilt out of their mind.[/quote]

Guilt?!  What on earth are you talking about.  There is no such thing as objective morality - your subjective dislike of something is nothing more than that.  Though I admit that some dumbs experience guilt.

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Again, that's because it's in Asia, and even then, that still does not make prostitution right.[/quote]

'Right'?  What on earth are you talking about.  There is no such thing as objective morality.  Your attempt to claim that something is 'wrong' for everone just because you subjectively don't like it is the very model of the intolerant freedom-hating prude.

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Women don't gain an "empowered lifestyle" by sucking men's cocks for money.  I hate to break it to you.[/quote]

Yes, they do.  They make many, many times the income they would growing vegetables or working in a factory.  They work very brief hours by comparison, and have much free time.  Many save money and build a house and/or start a small business (typically a retail shop, restaurant, or bar).  And finally many marry well-mannered prosperous elderly Northern Europeans, who move to Thailand (or the Philippines, etc) and raise them even further in the economic scale.  Best of all they are their own woman, not under the thumb of their family.  Yes, prostitution is one of the most empowering institutions for women.  Even in America it would be empowering compared to the endless trap of working in retail or a restaurant job.

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The question is, Opebo, what if everyone thought like you?  If regular people believed prostitution was "easier" and "more fun," there wouldn't be anyone to make your bedsheets, your food, or the hotels you sleep in.[/quote]

Presumably other jobs would have to pay more to attract workers, or would mainly attract males or ugly women.

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Again, this does not make it right.  Rather than screwing men for money, they could try and change the awkward societies they live in and not die as forgotten whores.[/quote]

There you go again about 'right'?  What do you think it means to someone else when you mouth the words 'right' or 'wrong'?  It just means Ebowed likes or doesn't like something, and why should we care about that?

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Being an assassin also pays better than McDonald's but I don't see you advocating that.[/quote]

I have never heard anyone compare accepting money for sex to murder before.. seems a bit overboard don't you think?  However I do agree that being an assasin would be preferrable by far to working at McDonalds.. in fact I'm amazed at how rarely such downtrodden people go on killing sprees.

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Paying for sex is absolutely not more pleasant than free sex, but since that's all you can get, I can understand your warped and delusional reasoning.  But get this -- prostitution is cheaper than free sex?  Genius.  Absolutely genius.[/quote]

So-called 'free sex' usually involves marriage, procreation, etc.  It is hugely more expensive than prostitution.  Even picking up girls for casual sex carries the enormous cost of inconvenience, having to jump through a lot of unpleasant hoops of dishonestly, charm, or whatnot.   In most cases it ends up costing money as well, but even if you're adept enough to do it without wasting money, the price you pay in sheer tiresomeness is huge.

If you don't require a victim for your crimes, I suppose you can make anything illegal.  Why not adultery?  Anal or oral sex?  Drinking alcohol?  You are a freedom-hating prude.. you might as well embrace it.

Adultery is a breach of contract and should therefore be illegal.  I would oppose making anal and oral sex as well as alcohol consumption illegal.  I take every issue on a case by case basis, so I don't see how you could call me a "freedom hating prude" based on my stance on prostitution.

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Because all it takes is one issue.

[Ebowed]

Sadly only 10,000 characters are allowed per post, so my rebuttal will need to be broken into two parts.  PART 1:

I have never actually met a real person who enjoyed their job,

That's because of the people you hang out with.

Hah, people smart enough to realize work sucks?  I think that is not so uncommon.

See John Dibble's above post.

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You get prostitutes in foreign countries where less jobs are available.  Also, I doubt that they really do prefer their "profession" to alternatives; they have just blocked their guilt out of their mind.

Guilt?!  What on earth are you talking about.  There is no such thing as objective morality - your subjective dislike of something is nothing more than that.  Though I admit that some dumbs experience guilt.[/quote]What does objective morality have to do with guilt?  By the way, everyone experiences guilt-- you used to, before you got used to whores screwing you over and over.  The fact that everyone experiences guilt is not a bad argument for absolute morality, in fact, but let's not get into that here.  As for the statement that "some dumbs experience guilt," you are calling everyone in the human race, including yourself, a "dumb," and you are also going seriously crazy with turning adjectives into nouns.

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Again, that's because it's in Asia, and even then, that still does not make prostitution right.

'Right'?  What on earth are you talking about.  There is no such thing as objective morality.  Your attempt to claim that something is 'wrong' for everone just because you subjectively don't like it is the very model of the intolerant freedom-hating prude.[/quote]I'm not an intolerant freedom-hating prude; I'm just concerned for the safety of the public at large.  This is why prostitution should remain illegal.

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Women don't gain an "empowered lifestyle" by sucking men's cocks for money.  I hate to break it to you.

Yes, they do.  They make many, many times the income they would growing vegetables or working in a factory.  They work very brief hours by comparison, and have much free time.  Many save money and build a house and/or start a small business (typically a retail shop, restaurant, or bar).  And finally many marry well-mannered prosperous elderly Northern Europeans, who move to Thailand (or the Philippines, etc) and raise them even further in the economic scale.  Best of all they are their own woman, not under the thumb of their family.  Yes, prostitution is one of the most empowering institutions for women.  Even in America it would be empowering compared to the endless trap of working in retail or a restaurant job.[/quote]Seeing as you know so much about the poor (by the way, you don't), this 'rags to riches' story you're telling me is outlandish.  The majority of prostitutes don't save money and build houses or start businesses; to say that is just downright dishonest.  Most of them use the money breast implants and illegal drugs.

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The question is, Opebo, what if everyone thought like you?  If regular people believed prostitution was "easier" and "more fun," there wouldn't be anyone to make your bedsheets, your food, or the hotels you sleep in.

Presumably other jobs would have to pay more to attract workers, or would mainly attract males or ugly women. [/quote]What's with you calling women "ugly"?  Your subjective dislike of women who are presumably 'ugly' by your low standards shouldn't be the standard for other people, prude.

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Again, this does not make it right.  Rather than screwing men for money, they could try and change the awkward societies they live in and not die as forgotten whores.

There you go again about 'right'?  What do you think it means to someone else when you mouth the words 'right' or 'wrong'?  It just means Ebowed likes or doesn't like something, and why should we care about that?[/quote]Funny you should call women 'ugly' if that is the case.  Let me tell you something, pal: 'right' and 'wrong' has nothing to do with whether or not I like it.

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Being an assassin also pays better than McDonald's but I don't see you advocating that.[/quote]

I have never heard anyone compare accepting money for sex to murder before.. seems a bit overboard don't you think?  However I do agree that being an assasin would be preferrable by far to working at McDonalds.. in fact I'm amazed at how rarely such downtrodden people go on killing sprees.[/quote]That's disturbing to hear, opebo.  Also, comparing prostitution to murder shouldn't be a problem to you since neither are immoral, right?

Continued in next post.

[Ebowed]

PART II

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Paying for sex is absolutely not more pleasant than free sex, but since that's all you can get, I can understand your warped and delusional reasoning.  But get this -- prostitution is cheaper than free sex?  Genius.  Absolutely genius.[/quote]

So-called 'free sex' usually involves marriage, procreation, etc.  It is hugely more expensive than prostitution.  Even picking up girls for casual sex carries the enormous cost of inconvenience, having to jump through a lot of unpleasant hoops of dishonestly, charm, or whatnot.   In most cases it ends up costing money as well, but even if you're adept enough to do it without wasting money, the price you pay in sheer tiresomeness is huge.[/quote]You're quite the romantic, aren't you.  You don't even know what sex is about or what it's for.  Either way, you shouldn't have to worry about marriage since you obviously have no intention of getting married, or procreation, because I'm assuming you'd be intelligent enough to use protection.  (On a side note, maybe the reason you get kids from sex is because you're not supposed to have sex all the time, hmm?)  I honestly wonder, opebo, how many children you have.  Screwing poor prostitutes who don't have the money to kill their babies is quite inconsiderate of you.

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Adultery is a breach of contract and should therefore be illegal.  I would oppose making anal and oral sex as well as alcohol consumption illegal.  I take every issue on a case by case basis, so I don't see how you could call me a "freedom hating prude" based on my stance on prostitution.[/quote]

Because all it takes is one issue.

[/quote]Good (and by "good," I mean "bad") logic.

Also, I notice you ignored a crucial part of my post again!

For example, I favor decriminalizing marijuana and hard drugs, which is a far more liberal stance than that of most people. Also, I notice you completely ignored this section of my post (except for the last sentence, which I have conveniently bolded for you):

Sounds like the overused "do you want to send women to the backalleys?" argument people use when they're losing a debate about abortion. The point of keeping prostitution illegal isn't to make it safe, but to make it as rare as possible. And even if the government decriminalized it, how can you expect such a seedy career to stay safe? Do you plan on the government interfering with this? I wouldn't be surprised if you supported socialized prostitution. My point is, I don't care if people will do it anyway-- legalizing it will encourage people to do it. I could say that rape should stay legal because people are going to do it anyway, but I don't see you agreeing to that. And don't give me your "victimless crime" garbage.

If you've lost an argument, at least have the guts to admit so; don't just ignore it.

Let's see if you'll respond to it this time.

[opebo]

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See John Dibble's above post.[/quote]

Well... perhaps the implication is none to flattering for Dibble...

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In fairness, I suppose that one could experience a guilt-like emotion for violating ones own subjective 'morality'.  However I think that is more like regret than guilt.  Personally I am rather guilt-free.

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Well, it was really more of a lower-working-class to upper-middle-class story, not really rags-to-riches.  I never said all prostitutes do this, but in Thailand an enormous percentage do greatly improve their lot, and building a house or starting a small business is commonplace.  In some provinces 15% of the girls marry foreigners, and most of those guys are prosperous Northern Europeans.

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You know not of what you speak.  I have lived there for part of the last three years, and I know these people rather well.  One thing is for sure, breast implants are an extreme rarity in women, for several reasons - Thais find them unattractive, as they idealize a slim figure, and the only people that get them are ladyboys, so most girls don't like that association.  Drugs also are not a big factor.

I believe you may have been speaking of the industry in America, which is related to drugs because only the truly desperate are willing to go into a job where imprisonment is a risk.  This would change completely with legalization.

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What's with you calling women "ugly"?  Your subjective dislike of women who are presumably 'ugly' by your low standards shouldn't be the standard for other people, prude.

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Well, Ebowed, I think we both know that while aesthetic judgements are entirely subjective, there is a marketplace of attractiveness.  Some people sell better than others, whether it is in the honest business of prostitution or in the dating world.   

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Of course neither are 'immoral'.  However murder is something many of us do fear.  Being murdered would directly effect you or I.  If some people somewhere exchange money for sex, it has no effect on you or I.
[/quote]

[opebo]

You're quite the romantic, aren't you.  You don't even know what sex is about or what it's for. 

It isn't about or for anything, any more than you or I are about or for anything.  Unless you're simply referring to our genes.  Certainly my behaviour patterns are more 'true' to the genetic 'design' than the ones you advocate.

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I don't see the connection.  What do you mean 'supposed to'?  You can do what you like.  Certainly our evolved sexual urges and reproductive organs would imply we're 'supposed' to have sex all the time.  The genes are all about more copies, Ebowed.

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Hah, they're all on the Pill or something like it.

For example, I favor decriminalizing marijuana and hard drugs, which is a far more liberal stance than that of most people. Also, I notice you completely ignored this section of my post (except for the last sentence, which I have conveniently bolded for you):

Sounds like the overused "do you want to send women to the backalleys?" argument people use when they're losing a debate about abortion. The point of keeping prostitution illegal isn't to make it safe, but to make it as rare as possible. And even if the government decriminalized it, how can you expect such a seedy career to stay safe? Do you plan on the government interfering with this? I wouldn't be surprised if you supported socialized prostitution. My point is, I don't care if people will do it anyway-- legalizing it will encourage people to do it. I could say that rape should stay legal because people are going to do it anyway, but I don't see you agreeing to that. And don't give me your "victimless crime" garbage.

If you've lost an argument, at least have the guts to admit so; don't just ignore it.

Let's see if you'll respond to it this time.

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To what?  Yes, you say you want people to not do prostitution. Yes, I understand your position.  What do you want me to say?  You have no respect for others privacy or freedom.