President Obama proposes two free years of community college for students

[All Along The Watchtower]

Excellent.

[krazen1211]

No.

[bedstuy]

Excellent idea, not gonna happen unfortunately.

Not like we could pay for it anyways unless we want a huge tax increase or a large increase in the u.s. deficit.

The cost is $60 billion over ten years.  So, $6 billion per year divided by the number of taxpayers, let's say 130 million people pay the federal income tax = $46.15 per year.

But, that's a super high estimate the actual fiscal cost.  You have to factor in the expanding number of taxpayers and the fiscal benefits.  After ten years, those taxpayers would be better off because of the economic benefits of a more skilled workforce, the added economic output of those workers, the amount they could put into the economy because they could pay for school more comfortably, etc., etc., etc..

So, let's say a more realistic conservative estimate would be $40 per Federal taxpayer per year.  That would be a huge tax increase I guess?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Bad timing.  He should have done it prior to these mid-terms.

The 2010 mid-terms, you mean?  Obama has not been permitted any legislative accomplishments since then.

Do you honestly believe his chances are better now? 

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Excellent idea, not gonna happen unfortunately.

Not like we could pay for it anyways unless we want a huge tax increase or a large increase in the u.s. deficit.

The cost is $60 billion over ten years.  So, $6 billion per year divided by the number of taxpayers, let's say 130 million people pay the federal income tax = $46.15 per year.

But, that's a super high estimate the actual fiscal cost.  You have to factor in the expanding number of taxpayers and the fiscal benefits.  After ten years, those taxpayers would be better off because of the economic benefits of a more skilled workforce, the added economic output of those workers, the amount they could put into the economy because they could pay for school more comfortably, etc., etc., etc..

So, let's say a more realistic conservative estimate would be $40 per Federal taxpayer per year.  That would be a huge tax increase I guess?

where are you getting the 60 billion figure? The article says there is no specific price tag yet.

[bedstuy]

Excellent idea, not gonna happen unfortunately.

Not like we could pay for it anyways unless we want a huge tax increase or a large increase in the u.s. deficit.

The cost is $60 billion over ten years.  So, $6 billion per year divided by the number of taxpayers, let's say 130 million people pay the federal income tax = $46.15 per year.

But, that's a super high estimate the actual fiscal cost.  You have to factor in the expanding number of taxpayers and the fiscal benefits.  After ten years, those taxpayers would be better off because of the economic benefits of a more skilled workforce, the added economic output of those workers, the amount they could put into the economy because they could pay for school more comfortably, etc., etc., etc..

So, let's say a more realistic conservative estimate would be $40 per Federal taxpayer per year.  That would be a huge tax increase I guess?

where are you getting the 60 billion figure? The article says there is no specific price tag yet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/09/obama-free-college_n_6444062.html

[King]

We need to run our government like a business!! A very stupid business that doesn't invest any money in anything and tries its hardest to downsize regardless of circumstances!!!

[muon2]

From the 1997 SOTU:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The idea was based on the HOPE scholarships, which were Gov Miller's program in GA, funded by the lottery, and applicable to all levels of higher ed. Note how TN also is using an excess in lottery funds to fund their new initiative. In response in 1997 Congress created the Hope tax credit which became part of the 1998 SOTU:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It only applies to middle and lower income households and has not kept up with inflation. Nonetheless Hope is a federal program designed to cover community college costs and represents part of the outlays towards a potential expansion. If this Congress takes up Obama's challenge will they modify or replace Hope?

[King]

No.

You know it's a good one when krazen can't  even come up with an amusing one liner.

[Maxwell]

Apparently this originated under Bill Haslam's Tennessee Promise program.


Once again, Obama takes a good Republican idea and proposes to expand it, now we just have to wait for the second part of the act where Republicans come out against it in full-force for the story to be complete.

One Republican doing something does not equal it being a Republican idea. Individual Republicans have disagreements over where to go with policy.

That being said, this actually seems rather piecemeal. A lot of states either already do this or cities do this. In Tulsa, the main community college there does the thing Obama is proposing.

[Joe Republic]

Bad timing.  He should have done it prior to these mid-terms.

The 2010 mid-terms, you mean?  Obama has not been permitted any legislative accomplishments since then.

Do you honestly believe his chances are better now? 

What?  No.  Where did I say such a thing?

[Mister Mets]

I think there are advantages to offering community college for free. We're likely to already spend the money it would take on various other aspects of higher education. Combining it with community service can also be effective. Making community college more appealing forces other schools to up their game. And I think we invest too much on the old and not enough on those who will contribute to society in signficiant ways.

But there are some concerns. A key problem with education is the inadequacy of the K-12 program. Administrators could use this as an excuse not to improve, figuring their students will now have an additional two years to learn all the stuff they were supposed to learn in High School. And I'm still concerned about the money being used poorly.

[Associate Justice PiT]

A key problem with education is the inadequacy of the K-12 program.

     This is what this made me think of. Credential inflation is a serious problem facing the country today, and plans to shuttle more people into higher education do not do anything to deal with it. We need to beef up high school curriculum and focus on developing key competencies and work experience that are marketable in a young adult. Funding an adult day care to warehouse all of our 18- and 19-year olds won't help anyone except community college faculty and staff.

[All Along The Watchtower]

No.

You know it's a good one when krazen can't  even come up with an amusing one liner.

No handouts to those lazy moochers who couldn't afford to go to college!

Self-made men like George W. Bush would agree; he rose from humble origins in West Texas to graduate from Yale University and Harvard Business School, and he did it when OBUMMER was still a kid, without the help of affirmative action or other handouts.

Obama's a SNOB for thinking that everyone is cut out for college-let alone community college! But then again, he's a community organizer (pfft)  from Chicago who wants to spread around the wealth, punish success,  and reward failure!

Checkmate, lie-berals!

[pbrower2a]

A key problem with education is the inadequacy of the K-12 program.

     This is what this made me think of. Credential inflation is a serious problem facing the country today, and plans to shuttle more people into higher education do not do anything to deal with it. We need to beef up high school curriculum and focus on developing key competencies and work experience that are marketable in a young adult. Funding an adult day care to warehouse all of our 18- and 19-year olds won't help anyone except community college faculty and staff.

We need do both. K-12 education was adequate for churning out factory workers who needed to be more trained to fit the regimentation of the assembly line than to reach for the stars. Sure, there is a college-prep program, but that is not terminal education. Anyone who takes high-school chemistry and physics, trigonometry and 'advanced algebra', or two years of a foreign language knows how incomplete his learning is.

We need youth more media-savvy than they are today -- able to recognize propaganda for the $#!+ that it is, who recognize the emptiness of 'entertainment', and who recognize more to life than 'sex&drugs&rock-n-roll'

[Associate Justice PiT]

A key problem with education is the inadequacy of the K-12 program.

     This is what this made me think of. Credential inflation is a serious problem facing the country today, and plans to shuttle more people into higher education do not do anything to deal with it. We need to beef up high school curriculum and focus on developing key competencies and work experience that are marketable in a young adult. Funding an adult day care to warehouse all of our 18- and 19-year olds won't help anyone except community college faculty and staff.

The difference is that a lot of community college degrees are actually trade-specific.  Often times, community colleges have programs like HVAC certification and the like. 

Plus, the adult vs. child line is rather arbitrary.  I don't see how students in 4-year colleges are any more "adults" than those 18/19-year olds in community colleges.  I'd argue adulthood truly begins at 21-22, or for those who go to med school/law school, 25-27.

     On the other hand, a lot of CC programs are not trades, and I suspect that the people being added would tend to gravitate towards a generic AA. The effect of society telling us that college is good and we should do it is powerful. These 18-year olds who are just following the next step on the path of education are not going to decide that they want to be auto mechanics. We've been conditioned to believe that an admin position requiring a Bachelor's degree is better than a trade that does not, even though the latter may pay much more.

     As for the adult/child line, it seems to me that you are saying that school delays adulthood, which I would emphatically agree with. Something that the supporters of more education neglect is that experience is far more important to getting hired. With a few exceptions, education without experience is worthless for breaking into a field. I would say that both high schools and colleges need to work much harder at placing their students into internships where they can get the experience they need to actually get good jobs.

A key problem with education is the inadequacy of the K-12 program.

     This is what this made me think of. Credential inflation is a serious problem facing the country today, and plans to shuttle more people into higher education do not do anything to deal with it. We need to beef up high school curriculum and focus on developing key competencies and work experience that are marketable in a young adult. Funding an adult day care to warehouse all of our 18- and 19-year olds won't help anyone except community college faculty and staff.

We need do both. K-12 education was adequate for churning out factory workers who needed to be more trained to fit the regimentation of the assembly line than to reach for the stars. Sure, there is a college-prep program, but that is not terminal education. Anyone who takes high-school chemistry and physics, trigonometry and 'advanced algebra', or two years of a foreign language knows how incomplete his learning is.

We need youth more media-savvy than they are today -- able to recognize propaganda for the $#!+ that it is, who recognize the emptiness of 'entertainment', and who recognize more to life than 'sex&drugs&rock-n-roll'

     The person who completes his Bachelor's also knows how incomplete his learning is. Same goes for the person who completes his Master's. By the time you reach the Ph.D stage, academia has socialized you to no longer care about anything beyond your sub-sub-field of choice.

     I like the idea of media-savvy youth. The problem is that academia is quite empty too. I doubt the academics would be happy about having students trained and educated to see their flaws and dismiss their thoughts.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Does this cover books and school supplies and the like?  That's got to be a bigger cost for most of those at the lower income scale, given the financial aid available for tuition.  The real obstacle is mainly the need to work and other obligations such as family that make it hard to commit to take a full time course load. All the same this policy may have an outsized psychological effect, leading among other things to more students choosing to go to community college for the first two years of their degree, to take advantage of a relatively small change in the costs of the already much less expensive option.

[DC Al Fine]

Does this cover books and school supplies and the like?  That's got to be a bigger cost for most of those at the lower income scale, given the financial aid available for tuition.  The real obstacle is mainly the need to work and other obligations such as family that make it hard to commit to take a full time course load. All the same this policy may have an outsized psychological effect, leading among other things to more students choosing to go to community college for the first two years of their degree, to take advantage of a relatively small change in the costs of the already much less expensive option.

Where I live, trades students are given on the job training about half the time they're in school. The jobs usually pay pretty well (~$15-$18/hr) compared to what a minimum wage earner would make. This makes a pretty big difference on the financial aspect. Do American CC's not do this?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Does this cover books and school supplies and the like?  That's got to be a bigger cost for most of those at the lower income scale, given the financial aid available for tuition.  The real obstacle is mainly the need to work and other obligations such as family that make it hard to commit to take a full time course load. All the same this policy may have an outsized psychological effect, leading among other things to more students choosing to go to community college for the first two years of their degree, to take advantage of a relatively small change in the costs of the already much less expensive option.

Where I live, trades students are given on the job training about half the time they're in school. The jobs usually pay pretty well (~$15-$18/hr) compared to what a minimum wage earner would make. This makes a pretty big difference on the financial aspect. Do American CC's not do this?

Some do, but not for all programs. I'm not sure how widespread it is.