Is pornography moral?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I don't think most people buy into the idea that chastity should be seen as a virtue.

I think that's partially TJ's point.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm going to go with other.  The base concept is amoral, but an awful lot of it is immoral not because it depicts sex, but because it depicts and promotes the degradation and subjection of people by others. (Then there's the whole problem with promiscuity, adultery, and fornication, but I'm trying avoid the pearl-clutching arguments here since I don't need to make them to find most pornography immoral.)

[TJ in Oregon]

I don't think most people buy into the idea that chastity should be seen as a virtue.

I think that's partially TJ's point.

Well, yes, but he also implies that it should be and I don't understand why that is the case. This is a relatively old thread, so I might be forgetting something, but I don't think anyone has defended that assumption. Claiming that chastity is virtuous is a much stronger statement than merely saying that pornography is immoral.

Of course it is since it covers a wider net of social behaviors than just consumption of pornography. But without considering chastity a virtue of course you aren't going to find pornography to be, in general, immoral. You can make arguments about the subjugation and dehumanizing of women all you want, at the end of the day you have to ask yourself why pornography is dehumanizing to women. If chastity is not a virtue, there is no inherently moral value in consenting to reveal one's self for the pleasure of others.

Now, why is chastity a virtue? There are a number of anthropological arguments that apply here from familial stability to privacy and the emotional reaction to protect one's self against exposure. The majority of people, whether practicing the virtue of chastity or not, do feel some degree of reluctance toward immediate sexual intimacy upon shaking hands. We don't quite live in a Brave New World, although we're certainly headed in that direction. Now, of course you can then say the reluctance is just a social construct rather than anything intrinsic to our humanity or dignity, and depending on what your system for determining what a virtue is, you may very well end up with that conclusion logically. In either case, we have to define a basis for what is a virtue.

I know this doesn't address you particularly, Nix, but I do want to address this in the context of Christianity as well since there are a number of Christian posters on here, and by the looks of this poll, many who believe porn is A-OK. A quick reading of the New Testament should show clearly there is some sort of sin connected to the "desires of the flesh" and "lusting in your heart". At risk of doing a jmfcst impression, I'll refrain from reciting them all, but they aren't hard to find and there are a whole lot of them. In the context of Christian history there were numerous saints and Church fathers who wrote extensively on chastity. St. Agnes was martyred, not for refusing to renounce Christianity, but for refusing to have sex. St. Augustine described his struggles with chastity almost continuously. It's nearly impossible to profess Christianity without accepting that there is, at least in some capacity, a virtue of chastity, whatever the specifics of it might mean. I contend that it is also pretty clear using porn for sexual gratification is a violation of this.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

It seems that many on the forum are invoking the prayer of Augustine during his youthful Manichean phase: "Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet."

[Tetro Kornbluth]

A better question to ask is whether morality is pornographic.

[Mopsus]

I'm not going to say that pornography is immoral because I don't find anything inherently immoral in nudity or sex (and those concepts don't necessarily need to be related). I do think that certain forms of pornography can be destructive when they reduce the actors to instruments of sexual gratification, causing the viewer to have difficulty thinking of people as anything other than sex objects. Still, I'm going to need a little bit more of an explanation as to why chastity is a virtue before I can vote "no".

[HagridOfTheDeep]

How are people writing novels on this subject? Morality is a human construct and porn is cool. That's about all there is to it.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I'm not going to say that pornography is immoral because I don't find anything inherently immoral in nudity or sex (and those concepts don't necessarily need to be related). I do think that certain forms of pornography can be destructive when they reduce the actors to instruments of sexual gratification, causing the viewer to have difficulty thinking of people as anything other than sex objects. Still, I'm going to need a little bit more of an explanation as to why chastity is a virtue before I can vote "no".

How are you defining pornography, exactly? Pornography at least as I understand the term does imply that the work exists primarily or solely for the purpose of sexual gratification; it's not any work that includes nudity or sex. The concept of chastity as TJ is referring to it (and, although I'm not as familiar with conservative Calvinism as I am with conservative Catholicism, I'd guess as DC Al Fine is too) doesn't involve a categorical objection to these things, or even to their depiction in art.

How are people writing novels on this subject? Morality is a human construct

Very few people actually act as if they believe that, even though many say that they do.

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It's not, apparently.

It isn't the idea that there's nothing inherently morally objectionable about pornography that I have a problem with--I disagree with it but disagreeing with something and having a problem with it aren't or at least needn't be the same--so much as the idea that this is a simple, self-evident truth and that any beliefs to the contrary are just nonsensical and not worth engaging. It's either uncalled-for posturing or profound myopia.

[Mopsus]

I'm not going to say that pornography is immoral because I don't find anything inherently immoral in nudity or sex (and those concepts don't necessarily need to be related). I do think that certain forms of pornography can be destructive when they reduce the actors to instruments of sexual gratification, causing the viewer to have difficulty thinking of people as anything other than sex objects. Still, I'm going to need a little bit more of an explanation as to why chastity is a virtue before I can vote "no".

How are you defining pornography, exactly? Pornography at least as I understand the term does imply that the work exists primarily or solely for the purpose of sexual gratification; it's not any work that includes nudity or sex.

There are pornographic "works" that more or less explicitly aim to degrade one of the actors for the pleasure of the viewer (and that appears to me to be a troubling amount of what's out there). I think that that sort has the potential to do more harm than works that at least pretend to show two people engaging in mutually-satisfying intercourse.

[New_Conservative]

I think both producing porn, and watching it is immoral.

[afleitch]

Moral pronouncements about sex, porn and relationships from people who have limited to no experience with any of these issues or refuse to engage with them, are as of much weight as a straight man’s casual dismissal of being gay because he 'just can't understand it' or an anorexic’s view towards food.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Moral pronouncements about sex, porn and relationships from people who have limited to no experience with any of these issues or refuse to engage with them, are as of much weight as a straight man’s casual dismissal of being gay because he 'just can't understand it' or an anorexic’s view towards food.

I think it is safe to say most people on the internet have experience with porn. Maybe not with sex or relationships, but certainly they have had porn.

[afleitch]

Moral pronouncements about sex, porn and relationships from people who have limited to no experience with any of these issues or refuse to engage with them, are as of much weight as a straight man’s casual dismissal of being gay because he 'just can't understand it' or an anorexic’s view towards food.

I think it is safe to say most people on the internet have experience with porn. Maybe not with sex or relationships, but certainly they have had porn.

And anorexics will occasionally eat food. Under duress, with a sense of disgust and shame yes, but they will eat. What I'm saying is that those who push against sexualisation as part of an individuals sexuality because they themselves do not indulge in it, or are put off by it or have some other form of internalised objection to it, have an anorexic view towards what for most of us is a healthy relationship with sex.

[traininthedistance]

In practice the vast majority of people who watch porn are cognisicent of the fact that porn is fantasy, that women (or men for that matter) aren't like that in real life and that this has no real world implications outside of one's desires. If you ask for empirical evidence, may I suggest Atlas forum?

I think the explosion of the Brazilian waxing sector of the economy is a "real world implication" that is quite obviously attributable to porn. 

On a more serious note, I basically agree with MOPolitico.  There's nothing inherently wrong with porn, I like nekkid ladies genuinely enjoying themselves just as much as the next person.  But a lot of what gets produced celebrates exploitation and degradation in a way that makes me uneasy and should make you uneasy as well.

[TNF]

I think both producing porn, and watching it is immoral.

But you support drug testing welfare recipients, so I'll take your definition of "immorality" with a very big grain of salt.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

Both are immoral (normal).

[DINGO Joe]

It seems that many on the forum are invoking the prayer of Augustine during his youthful Manichean phase: "Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet."

Best Saint ever, if I remember anything from my Freshman World History, it's my professor's phrasing of that, "Save me God, but just not yet"

[DINGO Joe]

Thanks to Gawker, I was looking at the sex tape that the 1st runnerup of the Miss Teen Colorado had made.  She's attractive and all the body parts are real, but no bad music, or bad dialogue, or inconceivable plot devices, just viagra dick and her as vessel to be smacked against.  I feel bad for the kids these days.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Thanks to Gawker, I was looking at the sex tape that the 1st runnerup of the Miss Teen Colorado had made.  She's attractive and all the body parts are real, but no bad music, or bad dialogue, or inconceivable plot devices, just viagra dick and her as vessel to be smacked against.  I feel bad for the kids these days.

I hope it was better than the horrible performance Miss Delaware put on.

[DINGO Joe]

Thanks to Gawker, I was looking at the sex tape that the 1st runnerup of the Miss Teen Colorado had made.  She's attractive and all the body parts are real, but no bad music, or bad dialogue, or inconceivable plot devices, just viagra dick and her as vessel to be smacked against.  I feel bad for the kids these days.

I hope it was better than the horrible performance Miss Delaware put on.

Sure, pretty much by default though.