what exactly is a social conservative?

[freepcrusher]

To most people it means being opposed to abortion and gay marriage. But traditionally, being a social conservative meant being a "societal" (hence the word social) conservative and being opposed to social engineering.

Nowadays whenever I hear a conservative talk about how x group is really socially conservative and is ready to be picked off by the republicans, I'm starting to think that they really mean something else when they say "social conservative" is this: http://isteve.blogspot.com/2012/11/what-pundits-really-mean-when-they-say.html


This explains why I've been appalled by social conservatism even though I fit the mold. For instance I don't drink alcohol that often, save for that one time I posted drunk two or three years ago, haven't smoked weed since I was twenty, and never was a manwhore. I had always seen socons as the bridge and tunnel types in NY (think of the movie Summer of Sam) or the type of people one sees at SEC football games.

[politicus]

Value conservative would be a more appropriate term. Since it now takes quite a bit a social engineering if one wants to establish social conservative policies.

[angus]

what exactly is a social conservative?

I sort of wondered what happened to Krauthammer.  All this article says is that he broke his neck his first year at Haav'd med school. 

Do you wonder how Krauthammer masturbates?  Or if he even wants to?

Anyway, I got most of the way through before I started skimming.  Shall we pick apart Krauthammer's statement or the analysis?  They're both a little off, in my opinion.  Krauthammer is saying, whether you agree with it or not, that most of the hispanic types are candle-burning devotees of Our Lady of Guadelupe who, traditionally, beat their wives, never divorce, keep mistresses, and often can be seen driving Camaros and sporting mullets and cowboy hats (without upturned brims).  The author of the article, whether or not you agree with him, is saying that Krauthammer is saying Mexicans don't have good taste and Krauthammer is bigoted against people who don't have good taste and at the same time thinks that they can be manipulated in ways that'll result in Krauthammer and his friends having to pay very low taxes.

I think they're both a little off-base here.  Not hugely, but a little.

To answer your question, a social conservative is someone who never puts olive juice in his martini.  That is, he won't drink his martinis dirty.  There are other, less salient characteristics of the social conservative, but this is the main identifying mark of a social conservative.  Kind of like, if you want to know if someone in the room is a vampire, just leave your shoelaces untied, because it'll drive any vampire nuts--they're neat freaks and can't stand to see such disorder.  The first guy who comes over and insists on tying your shoes for you is a vampire.  Break out the wooden stake and the Holy Water.  Same thing with social conservatives, just offer everyone at your next cocktail party a dirty vodka martini.  The first one who says, "just one olive please, and hold the olive juice" is a social conservative.  Break out the wooden stake and the Holy Water.
 

[Redalgo]

Perhaps "social conservative" in the United States is a nicer and more popular way of describing someone who likely has a high RWA score. They are folk who both submit to the mores of society and leaders they respect on one hand, while on the other tending to aggress against those who do not - especially when they are able to do so without fear of serious reprisals. That is not to say they are authoritarians in politics, per se, rather that their ways of thinking are authoritarian. They will earnestly defend the "Founders" and their ideals as best they can (and as best they interpret them) on account of their conformance and submission to conventional political thought.

For example, religious authorities tell them homosexuality is an abomination and tradition has it that homosexuality is not only abnormal but deviant and a sort of disease as well, which in turn makes LGBT folk and their supporters today legitimate targets for scorn, repression, and attack. Likewise for when leaders reinforce their traditional beliefs (ones they consider common sense) that women are incapable of serving competently in combat units overseas, atheists have no fear of Hell to make them trustworthy, or - turning back the clock - that African Americans deserve fewer rights than their White counterparts and Native Americans are savages in need of assimilation and saving through Jesus Christ.

To be fair about this however, I do not mean to imply social conservatives are mindless drones or lack a considerable number of redeeming virtues. Some are quite intelligent and have put a lot of time and energy into formulating their views. Their application of morality to politics is arguably far better balanced than what the secular left or libertarians bring to the table. Social conservatives are the ones among us here who most care about group cohesion and solidarity in the face of rampant individualism in much of the West. They care about duty, loyalty, purity, and respect for traditional institutions and leaders alike in an age where those things seem to be in decay. And these are people who vastly outnumber folk like me when it comes to rolling up their sleeves and getting directly involved in charity work in their communities - i.e. they are often less me-oriented.

Overall, they are great for holding us back a bit from rushing recklessly into potentially harmful changes in culture but also a bit threatening for being the crowd most likely to do whatever an aspiring, sufficiently charismatic despot-to-be asks of them. It does not make them FF or HP by default - merely different in their values from folk like me and most of the Atlas' other, non-blue and non-brown avatar posters. These are people we would not be better off without, I should add.

[All Along The Watchtower]

When someone describes the self as a social conservative, you should ask what exactly do they wish to conserve.

[PJ]

Social conservative and social liberal are meaningless collections of ideological positions that have no actual pattern. Social conservatives in America are usually social authoritarians who want the government to implement and enforce their version of morality. Few social conservatives are true social authoritarians. An exception would be Cassius, who admits to being an advocate of big government. Must Social Conservatives are advocates of big government only when it fits into the twisted vision of 'family values.' Examples would include common opposition to government surveillance and gun control, despite these being aspects of traditional social conservatism and authoritarianism. As far as living your life in a social conservative or socially liberal lifestyle, that shouldn't affect your political ideology. You can live a traditional life of family values, but what really matters is whether or not you believe your lifestyle should be forced on someone else.

When someone describes the self as a social conservative, you should ask what exactly do they wish to conserve.

This is an excellent point. Social conservatives are often opponents of environmentalism. They would argue that this fits into conservatism because they are keeping things the same, but that stands in the way of the concept of conservation. It helps to show how no ideology is truly consistent with its principles.

[Person Man]

Could social conservatism simply mean that someone believes that right and wrong lacks context over time or to be more precise, what something has meant 100 years ago is what something means now. This is why many of them don't believe in evolution.

So what they say about Republicans being able to do better because of social conservatism is that certain underprivileged groups don't understand the modern world.

[traininthedistance]

To answer your question, a social conservative is someone who never puts olive juice in his martini.  That is, he won't drink his martinis dirty.  There are other, less salient characteristics of the social conservative, but this is the main identifying mark of a social conservative.  Kind of like, if you want to know if someone in the room is a vampire, just leave your shoelaces untied, because it'll drive any vampire nuts--they're neat freaks and can't stand to see such disorder.  The first guy who comes over and insists on tying your shoes for you is a vampire.  Break out the wooden stake and the Holy Water.  Same thing with social conservatives, just offer everyone at your next cocktail party a dirty vodka martini.  The first one who says, "just one olive please, and hold the olive juice" is a social conservative.  Break out the wooden stake and the Holy Water.

Vodka martinis?  Vodka?! 

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

To answer your question, a social conservative is someone who never puts olive juice in his martini.  That is, he won't drink his martinis dirty.  There are other, less salient characteristics of the social conservative, but this is the main identifying mark of a social conservative.  Kind of like, if you want to know if someone in the room is a vampire, just leave your shoelaces untied, because it'll drive any vampire nuts--they're neat freaks and can't stand to see such disorder.  The first guy who comes over and insists on tying your shoes for you is a vampire.  Break out the wooden stake and the Holy Water.  Same thing with social conservatives, just offer everyone at your next cocktail party a dirty vodka martini.  The first one who says, "just one olive please, and hold the olive juice" is a social conservative.  Break out the wooden stake and the Holy Water.

Vodka martinis?  Vodka?! 

Clearly you are shaken by the concept or you wouldn't be so stirred up about it.

[Person Man]

To answer your question, a social conservative is someone who never puts olive juice in his martini.  That is, he won't drink his martinis dirty.  There are other, less salient characteristics of the social conservative, but this is the main identifying mark of a social conservative.  Kind of like, if you want to know if someone in the room is a vampire, just leave your shoelaces untied, because it'll drive any vampire nuts--they're neat freaks and can't stand to see such disorder.  The first guy who comes over and insists on tying your shoes for you is a vampire.  Break out the wooden stake and the Holy Water.  Same thing with social conservatives, just offer everyone at your next cocktail party a dirty vodka martini.  The first one who says, "just one olive please, and hold the olive juice" is a social conservative.  Break out the wooden stake and the Holy Water.

Vodka martinis?  Get out the stakes and holy water. 

Though through the content of the the article, the butthead who wrote it and my past preconceptions on social conservatism, perhaps a social conservative is someone who doesn't understand or appreciate the opportunities of modern culture the same way a economic realist(in the Thurmond Arnold or Joe Kennedy sense), social Democrat or socialist doesn't understand or appreciate modern economics or business.

[Cassius]

Generally, people who want the government to force everyone into their views on "morality".


In the US, they tend to be much of the following:

pro-gun rights
deeply religious evangelical Christians, disdain other religions
"defenders of 'traditional' marriage", and generally hate gay people(but they can't say hate them anymore. It's not acceptable in the 2010s)
"pro - life", but support liberal application of the death penalty
supporters of private, Christian schools that teach creationism and enforce school prayer
Flag-wavers(both US and Confederate flags) and scream about loving America, worship the police and military
anti-porn, anti-drug, anti-women in the military, anti-Hollywood, anti-art(unless it's Christian)
Believe the there is a "Culture War" going on, and that white, God-loving Americans are a minority and being oppressed
Unbelievably hypocritical and condescending

Horrible, horrible people. Rick Santorum, Mike Huckabee, Jerry Falwell, the Bachmanns and Palins. They want the federal government and SCOTUS to legislate morality.

Whilst I wouldn't disagree that we social conservatives do want to use the government to enforce our view of morality, I do question your singling us out on this particular question. After all, what is politics, other than the attempt by one or more groups to enforce it's beliefs, and by definition it's sense of morality, onto other groups in society.

Take the 'economic' debate. Despite attempts by some to claim otherwise, the idea of morality is fused into many of the issues that make up this debate. Take taxation as an example. Some people are inclined to take the view that wealth inequality is basically immoral, and that the government should take steps to reduce it by raising taxes on the rich and redistributing that wealth to the poor via greater spending on the various kinds of welfare benefits etc... An economic liberal, on the other hand, might find this argument immoral, and thus will seek to reduce taxes and welfare spending. Both of these approaches (though, in my view, the former especially) basically constitute an attempt to enforce a certain groups idea of morality (social-democrats might be an example of this) on another group (the rich).

'Social liberals' too are hardly above using the government to legislate their own form of morality. There is, in my opinion, a difference between a social liberal and a 'social libertarian'. Whilst the latter, and a few do exist, are essentially what people often describe a social liberal as (not wanting to interfere in the 'private lives' of others at all, no matter what they might be doing), an actual social liberal is different. Social liberals, although this is a painfully broad generalisation, are relaxed about some forms of behaviour (homosexuality, promiscuity and drug use might be examples) and often believe that this sort of behaviour should be embraced. But there are other forms of behaviour (recreational hunting, public prayer and disdain for homosexuality may be examples) which they really dislike (but of course, all social liberals are different) and want the government to legislate against.

Take the ban on hunting with dogs in the UK. Of course, animal welfare concerns came into that, but really, it was also about the disdain that many metropolitan social liberals felt for the beliefs and lifestyle of those who took part in hunting with dogs (a disdain which was often reciprocated) and the belief that what they were doing was wrong, immoral and thus had to be stopped. Instituting gay marriage is another example of this. A lot of supporters have put forward the principle of equality as a reason for pushing this legislation through. To many, the idea of promoting equality between all people goes right to the heart of their beliefs (for others, such as my good self, it doesn't), and therefore they will use the power of government to push forward their beliefs on this issue. So, a desire to use the power of the government to enforce your own idea of what is right onto society as a whole is hardly unique to 'social conservatives'.

[angus]

Vodka martinis?  Vodka?!  

Yes, it's important to say "vodka martini, please" when ordering.  If you don't, they'll use gin.

Two parts vodka, one part dry vermouth, a small spoonful of olive juice, and two olives, poured over ice, stirred with a glass rod, then into a martini glass using the glass rod to ensure that the ice remains behind in the original mixing vessel.  

There's some disagreement over the proper vodka.  I prefer Tito's for martinis.  Grumpy Gramps prefers Grey Goose.  Why he does, I'll never understand.  Grey Goose, like most cheap vodka, tastes like hospitals smell.  It's like getting cheap vodka for an expensive vodka price.  

[politicus]

There's some disagreement over the proper vodka.  I prefer Tito's for martinis.  Grumpy Gramps prefers Grey Goose.  Why he does, I'll never understand.  Grey Goose, like most cheap vodka, tastes like hospitals smell.  It's like getting cheap vodka for an expensive vodka price.  

[Foucaulf]

If I were to provide a functional definition: someone who is actively opposed to the existence of a belief or custom due its incompatibility with a personal set of views she believes was once the norm.

Italics #1 is kind of what Angus said. #2, I feel, is necessary to distinguish between this and "universalists" who argue in the names of human rights and natural values. Those advocates would usually be considered liberal. Certainly plenty doing so would be seen as conservative, but there's a nice "libertarian" category for them these days.

I would believe it likelier that the term is nothing more than a heuristic to group foreign perspectives together, and that definitions based on the type of opposition (populist, for example) are better anyway.


But let me get to my actual point: why are you linking to a VDARE article? Is that why you've been up on your racialist nonsense for the past months?

[angus]

Italics #1 is kind of what Angus said.

Kind of, albeit metaphorically (as is my custom.)  I was also getting at the point PJ made.

I will add that Klingons are social conservatives, as are Vulcans, although the phenomenon manifests itself in radically different ways in each of those peoples.  Humans are not social conservatives.  This provides inner conflict in Lieutenant Worf, who was sired by Klingons but nurtured by Humans.  It is also a wonderful and rarely-seen source of inner conflict in Commander Spock, whose father was Vulcan and whose mother was Human.

Deanna Troi's mother is the opposite of a social conservative. 

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I guess the best way to describe a social conservative would be that they are ideologically resistant to those that they see as uprooting what they'd call the natural order of things. For many, that natural order may be defined by religion and nationalism, as well as, obviously, tradition. There isn't anything inherently good or bad about such a viewpoint, and I'm sure there are other definitions that could be broader, narrower, or simply alternative, but I think that the description above could be used to cover a vast amount of social conservatives. Also, "natural" could be replaced with "rightful", as the two in the mind are functionally the same, though denotationally different.

[Lief 🗽]

Someone who believes the government should actively enforce and defend what they believe to be traditional societal hierarchies.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Someone who believes the government should actively enforce and defend what they believe to be traditional societal hierarchies.

This would work, though I think "should not interfere with" would also be in there.

[ElectionsGuy]

Someone who believes the government should actively enforce and defend what they believe to be traditional societal hierarchies.

This would work, though I think "should not interfere with" would also be in there.

^^^

[All Along The Watchtower]

By "traditional" we mean ..what, exactly?

(There are a lot of different traditions, you know....)

[Cassius]

By "traditional" we mean ..what, exactly?

(There are a lot of different traditions, you know....)

I think using the term social conservative works when referring to a person who holds views that are traditionalist by the standards of the society that they live in. I am a social conservative certainly by western standards, but were I to live in an African or Islamic society (assuming my views were the same) perhaps I would be seen as more 'socially liberal'. It, like all other ideologies and values, has a philosophical meaning dependent upon it's time and location.