Pope Francis: the celibacy rule for priests "could change"

[Blue3]

Pope Francis suggested in an interview last year that the Catholic Church's rule that priests be celibate "can change" and admitted he was tempted by a woman as a young seminarian.

He said that the married clergy of the Eastern churches are "very good priests" and those pushing for the same in Roman Catholicism do so "with a certain pragmatism."

For now, though, "the discipline of celibacy stands firm," he said, adding that priests should quit if they can't abstain from sex or if they get a woman pregnant.

The former Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio's comments -- published in the Spanish-language book “On the Heavens and the Earth” and translated by the Catholic news website Aleteia -- were made when he was archbishop of Buenos Aires.
 
Father Thomas Reese, a Vatican analyst for the National Catholic Reporter, said he was surprised by the remarks because "the last few popes have been pretty clear they were not open to changing it or having a discussion about it."

While Bergoglio certainly wasn't advocating for a rule change, "it looks like he may be willing to talk about it," Reese said.

The future pope began the conversation with an personal anecdote from his years as a seminarian.

"I was dazzled by a girl I met at an uncle's wedding," he said, according to Aleteia. "I was surprised by her beauty, her intellectual brilliance ... and, well, I was bowled over for quite a while.

"I kept thinking and thinking about her. When I returned to the seminary after the wedding, I could not pray for over a week because when I tried to do so, the girl appeared in my head. I had to rethink what I was doing."

He said he had to choose between the girl and the priesthood, and though he picked the latter, he knows not everyone would.

"When something like this happens to a seminarian, I help him go in peace to be a good Christian and not a bad priest," Bergoglio said.

"In the Western Church to which I belong, priests cannot be married as in the Byzantine, Ukrainian, Russian or Greek Catholic Churches. In those Churches, the priests can be married, but the bishops have to be celibate. They are very good priests," he added.

"In Western Catholicism, some organizations are pushing for more discussion about the issue. For now, the discipline of celibacy stands firm. Some say, with a certain pragmatism, that we are losing manpower. If, hypothetically, Western Catholicism were to review the issue of celibacy, I think it would do so for cultural reasons (as in the East), not so much as a universal option."

He said that "for the moment" he was in favor of maintaining the celibacy rule "because we have ten centuries of good experiences rather than failures."

But, he added, "It is a matter of discipline, not of faith. It can change."

In the meantime, though, he said celibacy should not be treated with a wink and a nod. Any priest who strays and becomes a father "has to leave the ministry," he said.

"Now, if a priest tells me he got excited and that he had a fall, I help him to get on track again. There are priests who get on track again and others who do not," he said.

"The double life is no good for us. I don't like it because it means building on falsehood. Sometimes I say: 'If you can not overcome it, make your decision.'"

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/20/17386717-pope-francis-spoke-of-being-dazzled-by-girl-possible-change-of-celibacy-rule?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=2




Looks like it could come sooner than the 20-30 years I predicted in the other thread!


The Pope is also urging people of all religions, as well as atheists, to work together for justice, peace, helping the poor, helping the environment, and defending the dignity of every person.

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-urges-religions-those-no-church-ally-justice-154731915.html

[John Dibble]

Well, how sensible of him. The Catholic Church would be smart to drop the celibacy policy if they want to get more priests.

The Pope is also urging people of all religions, as well as atheists, to work together for justice, peace, helping the poor, helping the environment, and defending the dignity of every person.

So he's reversed his position on gay marriage, then?

[Blue3]

Well, how sensible of him. The Catholic Church would be smart to drop the celibacy policy if they want to get more priests.

The Pope is also urging people of all religions, as well as atheists, to work together for justice, peace, helping the poor, helping the environment, and defending the dignity of every person.

So he's reversed his position on gay marriage, then?

Well the Catholic Church has also said gay people should be respected, and Pope Francis did support civil unions in Argentina.

[Miles]

I don't know how I feel about this. Yes, its more pragmatic, but I tend to be more conservative with matters of the Church.

[Blue3]

I don't know how I feel about this. Yes, its more pragmatic, but I tend to be more conservative with matters of the Church.

Well, the celibacy rule was never created as a theological doctrine. It was just instituted a thousand years ago, so the Church didn't have to dispute inheritance claims with the children of priests.

Peter was married, as were some of the other Apostles. Is not Peter considered the first Pope?

[politicus]

I don't know how I feel about this. Yes, its more pragmatic, but I tend to be more conservative with matters of the Church.

Well, the celibacy rule was never created as a theological doctrine. It was just instituted a thousand years ago, so the Church didn't have to dispute inheritance claims with the children of priests.

Peter was married, as were some of the other Apostles. Is not Peter considered the first Pope?

Only became church law from the First Lateran Concile in 1123 - and you have some married clergy much later. It would be wise to remove it.

[RI]

I'm not a fan of this potential move.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Interesting. He seems to be used, as a Bishop, to displaying a much greater independence of thought than the average high-ranking Catholic cleric. While I don't really care that much about this issue in particular, the attitude itself is very encouraging for plenty of other issues.

[DC Al Fine]

I don't know how I feel about this. Yes, its more pragmatic, but I tend to be more conservative with matters of the Church.

Well, the celibacy rule was never created as a theological doctrine. It was just instituted a thousand years ago, so the Church didn't have to dispute inheritance claims with the children of priests.

Peter was married, as were some of the other Apostles. Is not Peter considered the first Pope?

Only became church law from the First Lateran Concile in 1123 - and you have some married clergy much later. It would be wise to remove it.

It's not a theological, and the reasons for issues have pretty much stopped. Just keep vow of poverty and they should be fine.

[TJ in Oregon]

I'm not sure we should be reading anything into this. A year ago, as a bishop, he articulated the Church's teaching that a celibate priesthood is a discipline of the Church and not doctrine. He also said he favored the discipline to be continued. Nothing here is breaking in any way. Will he change the rule requiring celibacy for priests? Maybe. But this doesn't mean he will.

[Blue3]

I'm not sure we should be reading anything into this. A year ago, as a bishop, he articulated the Church's teaching that a celibate priesthood is a discipline of the Church and not doctrine. He also said he favored the discipline to be continued. Nothing here is breaking in any way. Will he change the rule requiring celibacy for priests? Maybe. But this doesn't mean he will.

I'm not saying he's saying it will. I'm saying he's saying it could change. Which is newsworthy.

[Hatman 🍁]

This isn't as important as letting women be priests.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Isn't it a case that the rule is very heavily ignored in Argentina and much of South America and it's not uncommon for priests to live fairly openly with girlfriends?

(I do remember reading some study that the percentage of American priests that have had an "affair" at some point is also surprisingly high, possibly as high as 25%. And remember coming across an internet support group for women that have ever been girlfriends of priests.) And of course it's well known that in the Middle Ages and Early Modern Era priests and nuns hooking up was so common many bishops just adopted more of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy toward it rather than disciplining any who were discovered to have such a relationship.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Isn't it a case that the rule is very heavily ignored in Argentina and much of South America and it's not uncommon for priests to live fairly openly with girlfriends?

From what I've heard, it's far from universal, but Francis is likely to have at least some experience working with priests, probably including otherwise good and conscientious priests, who are in this situation.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I remember reading too about a priest in Miami (Nathan is probably familiar with this) who not only had a girlfriend but was fairly open about it and basically everyone in his parish knew. Once the bishop couldn't ignore it anymore he converted to Episcopalian and married his girlfriend, and is now an Episcopal priest.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I've heard of the man, although I can't remember his name. He's supposedly a very good pastor. My own bishop, Douglas Fisher, used to be a Catholic priest, although he was careful about getting laicised before he married and his actual conversion came later. His wife is an Episcopal priest too now.

To be honest, I'm pretty sympathetic to the idea of priestly celibacy on a theoretical level, but it's definitely not for everyone or for every denomination.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Here's my prediction: The celibacy requirement won't be officially dropped but a colossal loophole allowing for married priests to be widespread will be opened in the next 5-10 years. Most likely and easiest one would just be to allow married deacons to be upgraded to actual priests after a certain period of service. Though they might take a more pragmatic route, something like only X number of deacons can be promoted a year and X is based on how short of the recruitment goal for normal priests they fall short of.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

It won't happen Red, not as long as Francis is Pope.  I don't see him investing his energy into ending celibacy in the Roman Rite as he has more important fish to fry.  If he weren't dismissive of the ordinates, I could see Francis having them evolve into an independent western Rite, separate from the Roman Rite, in which priests could marry, but I don't think he'll pursue that option.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

It won't happen Red, not as long as Francis is Pope.  I don't see him investing his energy into ending celibacy in the Roman Rite as he has more important fish to fry.  If he weren't dismissive of the ordinates, I could see Francis having them evolve into an independent western Rite, separate from the Roman Rite, in which priests could marry, but I don't think he'll pursue that option.

The loophole I mentioned above wouldn't really be "ending celibacy", but would solve many of the problems associated with it.

And I thought priests in most non-Roman Rites could already marry.

[Antonio the Sixth]

This isn't as important as letting women be priests.

Very true.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

You can't really have women as priests without ending celibacy. Because then you're going to have supposedly "celibate" men and women living together...yeah we know how that will end. And what happens if a female priest becomes pregnant? Considering that this is the Roman Catholic Church we're talking about abortion obviously isn't an option...the farce of "celibacy" would become very obvious quickly.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

You can't really have women as priests without ending celibacy. Because then you're going to have supposedly "celibate" men and women living together...yeah we know how that will end. And what happens if a female priest becomes pregnant? Considering that this is the Roman Catholic Church we're talking about abortion obviously isn't an option...the farce of "celibacy" would become very obvious quickly.

What makes the whole situation seem so twisted to me is that in the Catholic Church the rationale for an all-male priesthood is theological whereas that for a celibate priesthood is only disciplinary, whereas I think a celibate priesthood is actually a lot more theologically defensible. If all or almost all priests actually took celibacy seriously as it currently stands the practical problem you're describing here wouldn't be one, but people's souls are embodied in weak and erring flesh, so...

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

This guy seems remarkably sane for a pope. I imagine he'll have much more of a legacy than Ratzinger.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I believe when I see.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

It won't happen Red, not as long as Francis is Pope.  I don't see him investing his energy into ending celibacy in the Roman Rite as he has more important fish to fry.  If he weren't dismissive of the ordinates, I could see Francis having them evolve into an independent western Rite, separate from the Roman Rite, in which priests could marry, but I don't think he'll pursue that option.

The loophole I mentioned above wouldn't really be "ending celibacy", but would solve many of the problems associated with it.

And I thought priests in most non-Roman Rites could already marry.

They can, but the various Eastern Rites generally tend to stay within their established flocks.  My thought was that using the ordinates as the basis of a second Western Rite in which married priests while retaining celibacy in the historical Roman Rite would be one possible way of reform in this area.  There are other ways of course and in some respects they would be better, but I don't think they are doable on the timescale of a single papacy.