Communism or Nazism - Which is more extreme?

[Marokai Backbeat]

Nazism. Strictly speaking, there was only one Nazist state in history... and a very bad one that is. In the broadest sense, "Communist" could refer to governments ranging from current Cyprus to current North Korea, I suppose. And the difference between Cyprus and North Korea is as huge as the difference between the United States and Stalinist Russia.

Precisely this. Considering the two equally extreme and equally dangerous is idiotic.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Nazism. Strictly speaking, there was only one Nazist state in history... and a very bad one that is. In the broadest sense, "Communist" could refer to governments ranging from current Cyprus to current North Korea, I suppose. And the difference between Cyprus and North Korea is as huge as the difference between the United States and Stalinist Russia.

Precisely this. Considering the two equally extreme and equally dangerous is idiotic.

Thats the problem, one of the options is narrow, one is broad and hence the question is partially flawed. When dealing with such a situation, I often take the subset of the broad category most similar to the narrow category and hence both are equally dangerous because that would be Nazism versus Stalinism.

A better comparison would have been Facism versus Communism or Nazism versus Stalinism.

The first examples for both that would come to my mind would be Spain vs Yugoslavia and Nazi Germany vesus Stalinist USSR.

Certainly you have countries today where Communists govern within a legitimate political system like Cyprus. But how many situations exist where such a thing has occured versus how many have resulting in autoritarian or totalitarian Regimes. Both ideologies are inherently flawed and both should be avoided if one is truly devoted to preserving democracy.

[Illuminati Blood Drinker]

Both. IMO, Nazism slightly more, but it's really a choice between two poisons.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Certainly you have countries today where Communists govern within a legitimate political system like Cyprus. But how many situations exist where such a thing has occured versus how many have resulting in autoritarian or totalitarian Regimes. Both ideologies are inherently flawed and both should be avoided if one is truly devoted to preserving democracy.

Well, in a democratic system, Communists usually don't win elections. Or at least they aren't elected president like in Cyprus. If they're elected, they normally don't abolish democracy though.

I think almost all communist dictatorships were states where the communists had risen to power through coups, revolutions or civil wars (or were installed by a foreign power as a satellite state).

Of course there could be some causality. "Moderate" communists (like Eurocommunists) are more likely to win an election than communists who would resort to violence.

[k-onmmunist]

I wasn't aware that Cyprus (the Greek-controlled part of the island, I presume) is governed by Communists. 

They're eurocommunists.

What's that, like europop?

Eurocommunism = Communists who support liberal democracy and wish to achieve communist aims without a revolution.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Eurocommunism hasn't really existed since the PCI transformed itself into the PDS though. They were pretty much the only Western communist party with a mass following to take it even slightly seriously after Carrillo and his followers were purged from the PCE in the mid 1980s.

[Mr. Taft Republican]

They both use the same mean to achieve different ends, they're both too extreme.

[k-onmmunist]

Both are threats to the territorial integrity of the Hapsburg Empire and should be eliminated.

[Sounder]

Anyone who answers communism needs their brain checking.

Really?  Look at the body count.  Communism is the world's deadliest religion/cult/evil.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Anyone who answers communism needs their brain checking.

Really?  Look at the body count.  Communism is the world's deadliest religion/cult/evil.

     Though there were also many more communist regimes that were active for far longer. It would be interesting to see how they stack up on a per country & per year basis.

[Gustaf]

Anyone who answers communism needs their brain checking.

Really?  Look at the body count.  Communism is the world's deadliest religion/cult/evil.

     Though there were also many more communist regimes that were active for far longer. It would be interesting to see how they stack up on a per country & per year basis.

On the other hand, that would be a little flawed. Nazism lasted for such a short period because they were brought down in WWII and they killed people in such numbers and at such speed partly because they were losing the war (the systematic killing really kicked off in 1944, IIRC, because they wanted to get rid of the Jews before it was too late).

[tpfkaw]

Anyone who answers communism needs their brain checking.

Really?  Look at the body count.  Communism is the world's deadliest religion/cult/evil.

     Though there were also many more communist regimes that were active for far longer. It would be interesting to see how they stack up on a per country & per year basis.

The highest state murder density over population and time period is the Khmer Rouge regime.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

(the systematic killing really kicked off in 1944, IIRC, because they wanted to get rid of the Jews before it was too late).

1941 actually. The Holocaust in Lithuania was basically over by the end of the year.

[Gustaf]

(the systematic killing really kicked off in 1944, IIRC, because they wanted to get rid of the Jews before it was too late).

1941 actually. The Holocaust in Lithuania was basically over by the end of the year.

Lithuania seems to be a bit of an odd case. I was still wrong though, it seems like it began in 1942. My impression comes mostly from the fact that most Holocaust stories that I encountered in school and so on concerned Hungarian and Romanian Jews - and I believe they didn't start killing them off until 1944. 

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Lithuania seems to be a bit of an odd case.

It's the extreme example of an extreme event. More ordinary people were involved in the murdering there than anywhere else. But systematic killings by the Einsatzgruppe happened across the Eastern Front; the Babi Yar massacre was also in 1941, for example. You didn't get the 'classic' death camps until a little later, of course, but they were just the logical result of murderous insanity plus bureaucracy. Of course even those were underway (at least in planning; I don't recall the details at the moment, because I'm tired) before Wannsee. Wannsee being mostly Heydrich (nice man that he was) showboating.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yeah, they were the last groups to be targeted.

[Gustaf]

Lithuania seems to be a bit of an odd case.

It's the extreme example of an extreme event. More ordinary people were involved in the murdering there than anywhere else. But systematic killings by the Einsatzgruppe happened across the Eastern Front; the Babi Yar massacre was also in 1941, for example. You didn't get the 'classic' death camps until a little later, of course, but they were just the logical result of murderous insanity plus bureaucracy. Of course even those were underway (at least in planning; I don't recall the details at the moment, because I'm tired) before Wannsee. Wannsee being mostly Heydrich (nice man that he was) showboating.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yeah, they were the last groups to be targeted.

Oh, I'm not saying the Holocaust was not a logical conclusion of Nazi ideology. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I rather meant that the speed of the killing (which, uninteresting as I consider that metric to be, was being discussed) was probably heightened by the war and the way it turned out. I'm not convinced all Jews would have been murdered so quickly otherwise.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Oh, I'm not saying the Holocaust was not a logical conclusion of Nazi ideology. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I rather meant that the speed of the killing (which, uninteresting as I consider that metric to be, was being discussed) was probably heightened by the war and the way it turned out. I'm not convinced all Jews would have been murdered so quickly otherwise.

Ah, so we're basically in agreement; I would agree that the war was as important as anything else in determining what ended up happening (including, actually, the eventual establishment of the death camps. Because what was critical was not so much Nazi ideology (although that was what made everything possible) but the fact that genocide was already going on, but in a less ordered and etc fashion). It's interesting that mass murder started during the invasion of the Soviet Union and not after the occupation of Poland.

[patrick1]

Oh, I'm not saying the Holocaust was not a logical conclusion of Nazi ideology. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I rather meant that the speed of the killing (which, uninteresting as I consider that metric to be, was being discussed) was probably heightened by the war and the way it turned out. I'm not convinced all Jews would have been murdered so quickly otherwise.

Ah, so we're basically in agreement; I would agree that the war was as important as anything else in determining what ended up happening (including, actually, the eventual establishment of the death camps. Because what was critical was not so much Nazi ideology (although that was what made everything possible) but the fact that genocide was already going on, but in a less ordered and etc fashion). It's interesting that mass murder started during the invasion of the Soviet Union and not after the occupation of Poland.

I guess it depends on the definition of mass murder.  I know we are all in agreement that the Nazis had wicked intentions from the start. However, there was what I would consider systematic mass murder from the start- an example being Operation Tannenberg led by Einsatzgrupen in the first phases of the Polish invasion. Even the Luftwaffe and regular Wehrmacht were involved in strafing of refugees and general indiscriminate murder of civilians.