Opinion of patriarch Bartholomew I

[memphis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_Patriarch_Bartholomew_I_of_Constantinople
It's your choose

[12th Doctor]

*shrug*

Cool beard.

[JSojourner]

FF

I am usually quite warm to Orthodox expressions of faith and have found Bartholomew's leadership to be mostly oustanding.  His conversations, for example, with the Archbishop of Canterbury have provided some thought-provoking and inspirational insights.  His environmental activism is badly needed in the Christian community and much to be commended.

I would like to know more about what role, if any, he has taken to influence the Russian Orthodox Church (I am not sure if he even has any influence over them) to lighten up on Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Catholics and other non-Orthodox or non-Christians sects. I know in the 90's the Russian Church, aided by Yeltsin, was extremely heavy-handed.

On the whole, though, FF...and yes Soulty, that is one kickass beard.  I bet there are scraps of food in there dating back to the Papandreou administration...

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I would like to know more about what role, if any, he has taken to influence the Russian Orthodox Church (I am not sure if he even has any influence over them) to lighten up on Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Catholics and other non-Orthodox or non-Christians sects. I know in the 90's the Russian Church, aided by Yeltsin, was extremely heavy-handed.

There is a movement in the Russian Orthodox Church to canonize Stalin as a saint. No, I am not making this up.

[12th Doctor]

I would like to know more about what role, if any, he has taken to influence the Russian Orthodox Church (I am not sure if he even has any influence over them) to lighten up on Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Catholics and other non-Orthodox or non-Christians sects. I know in the 90's the Russian Church, aided by Yeltsin, was extremely heavy-handed.

There is a movement in the Russian Orthodox Church to canonize Stalin as a saint. No, I am not making this up.

Doesn't surprise me.  The current ROC is run today by many of the atheist KGB agents that Stalin put through the seminary in order to infiltrate, and "regularize" the organization.  I don't trust the ROC any further than I can throw them.  They sold their soul to Stalin so that they could maintain a public face, and now they are just as Old Guard as Putin, and probably not half as sincerely spiritual.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

I'm digging that beard.  FF.

[Хahar 🤔]

I would like to know more about what role, if any, he has taken to influence the Russian Orthodox Church (I am not sure if he even has any influence over them) to lighten up on Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Catholics and other non-Orthodox or non-Christians sects. I know in the 90's the Russian Church, aided by Yeltsin, was extremely heavy-handed.

There is a movement in the Russian Orthodox Church to canonize Stalin as a saint. No, I am not making this up.

`

Given that all the Romanovs were, it's not a huge stretch.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Well they didn't impose an atheist regime which greatly persecuted the church in Russia. Nor were the daughters and son necessarily vile people (bugs me when people say "children" here, the oldest one was 22, only two of them were under 18, and of those one was 17, with 16 generally considered the age of adulthood in Russia at the time.) But like soulty is saying, it's become more of a Russian nationalist institution than a religious one. What's amusing would be having the Romanovs and a Bolshevik as saints (please note that there is close to 0% chance of this occurring, but the fact that anyone is even seriously suggesting it...)

[JSojourner]

I would like to know more about what role, if any, he has taken to influence the Russian Orthodox Church (I am not sure if he even has any influence over them) to lighten up on Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Catholics and other non-Orthodox or non-Christians sects. I know in the 90's the Russian Church, aided by Yeltsin, was extremely heavy-handed.

There is a movement in the Russian Orthodox Church to canonize Stalin as a saint. No, I am not making this up.

That's pretty eff'ed up, BRTD.  But I believe you.  The ROC was terribly corrupted during the Communisty years.  I know there are still pockets of faithful priests, but very few from what I gather. 

[GMantis]

The Patriarch is of course a freedom fighter. Not only for his efforts at reconciliation, but also for his fight for religious freedom in Turkey.

FF
I would like to know more about what role, if any, he has taken to influence the Russian Orthodox Church (I am not sure if he even has any influence over them) to lighten up on Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Catholics and other non-Orthodox or non-Christians sects. I know in the 90's the Russian Church, aided by Yeltsin, was extremely heavy-handed.

The ecumenical patriarch is only "first among equals". He can't interfere in internal affairs of Orthodox churches.
In any case, what did the Russian Orthodox church do which you find objective. During this period non-Orthodox churches expanded rapidly in Russia, so it's doubtfull that the ROC has been able to do much or make the state do something. Of course, relations between many of those churches and the ROC are bad, but as most of those are disrespectful towards Eastern Orthodoxy, that's not surprising.

There is a movement in the Russian Orthodox Church to canonize Stalin as a saint. No, I am not making this up.

This is being suggested by Communists. This should show how that it's not a serious idea at all. As for the actual chance of this happening, it's less likely than the Catholic Church canonizing Stalin.

Doesn't surprise me.  The current ROC is run today by many of the atheist KGB agents that Stalin put through the seminary in order to infiltrate, and "regularize" the organization.  I don't trust the ROC any further than I can throw them.  They sold their soul to Stalin so that they could maintain a public face, and now they are just as Old Guard as Putin, and probably not half as sincerely spiritual.

This is a huge distortion of history. It's not as if they had any other choice. I don't think that the few KGB agents put through the seminary (not that the KGB needed to do that - they recruited directly), if there any left have such a great influence. I'm not certain about the leadership, but Russians as a whole are very spiritual and considering the huge number of clergy murdered by Stalin, your remarks are very offensive.

[JSojourner]

GMantis,

At the end of the discussion, I will defer to your expertise because you have basically lived it and experienced it.  So I realize, from this end, sitting here in my armchair -- it's rather easy to bloviate about Russia.

I can only comment on what I heard anecdotally and from Evangelical Christian sources.  Essentially, that during the Yeltsin years, the ROC was only slightly more tolerant of non-Orthodox religious groups than the Communists were.  The ROC did not have power to jail or "hospitalize" anyone. But it was habitually favored when building permits were given, where funds were allocated to religious programs and -- in some cases -- was influential in enacting outright bans on non-Orthodox groups doing evangelism in specific locales.

As to the growth of non-Orthodox churches, I would suggest that doesn't necessarily indicate an atmosphere of religious tolerance. The Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches across the Peoples Republic of China grew dramatically in the latter half of the 20th century...despite horrific persecution until a relatively few years ago.  Sometimes, persecution is actually the cause of growth.

But please don't think I am equating mild to moderate religious favoritism with outright persecution. What non-Orthodox Christians in Russia experience is nothing compared to what Christians (and other religious folk) of all stripes endure in North Korea, Iran, etc.

And outside Russia, it's my understanding that other Orthodox churches (Syrian, Greek, Ethiopian, etc.) are quite friendly to Christian groups of other denominations.  There are the usual, and expected, doctrinal quibbles.  But nothing resembling persecution.

And as I said at the outset, that may also be the case in Russia and I may be misinformed.  You're quite a bit closer to the issue that I am!

[GMantis]

GMantis,

At the end of the discussion, I will defer to your expertise because you have basically lived it and experienced it.  So I realize, from this end, sitting here in my armchair -- it's rather easy to bloviate about Russia.

Well, I haven't been in Russia, but in my home country, which is also Orthodox, there were similar developments - though on a much smaller scale, of course. I also come from a quite Russophilic family and have been always interested in Russia, so I think my observations should be reasonably accurate.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

First of all, as Eastern Orthodox Christianity is predominant in Russia, it is always likely that it will be favoured to some extent. That there was some further discrimination against other churches is quite likely, at least for Evangelical Christians. I don't really know about more traditional Churches, but for Evangelical Christians there were some specific reasons for  additional discrimination. Some Evangelical Christians - not all of them, of course - treat the Orthodox Church with great disrespect. They don't consider Orthodox Christians as fully Christian. Some of the more extremist ones spread insults and falsifications about the Church - for example, that the Eastern Orthodox Christians are idolaters for the use of icons - and they aggressively proselytize, which the Eastern Orthodox Church regards as invasion.
Another point is that at the time many unconventional religious groups were coming from the US (colloquially known as "sects") - from semi respectable like the LDS to insane and dangerous like Scientology. There was a strong reaction to this, including among the general public.  At one point in the mid 90's joining a "sect" was regarded in my country as almost the same as starting to use hard drugs, and papers regularly featured horror stories about various "sects" (and from what I know from Russian media, it was like that in Russia as well). For a significant proportion of the population(and probably a large part of the clergy) "sects" and Evangelical Christians become almost synonymous, as they both came from the US (and for both they were rumours that they were funded by the CIA, though this is probably too much). This of course influenced the attitude of the government against Evangelical Christians  and in Russia, where the government was stronger, this probably contributed to discrimination against Evangelical Christian groups.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I would say that there was actually a climate of great permissiveness in all spheres of life, including religion (and at least here, there still is) after the collapse of Communism. This was also of true of Russia, though perhaps to a lesser extent.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

That is not quite true:
http://news.adventist.org/2003/01/egypt-coptic-pope-publicly-isults-seveth-ay-avetist-church.html
This is just an example, but it's noticeable that it's again directed against a non-mainline Protestant group - which also raised the most objection in Eastern Orthodox countries

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, you know of the views of one side of the dispute. I hope I have provided a good explanations of the views of the other side

[JSojourner]

GMantis,

That was outstanding.  And you're right about some groups unfairly castigating the Orthodox for the use of icons.  That's sort of like the old Protestant canard that "Catholics worship Mary". Pure silliness.

Thanks very much.  I am still waiting for you to post something that is not useful or informative!  You are among the best of us.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I think it's worth noting that the Russian Orthodox Church is basically non-existant outside of Russia. Russian communities abroad have their own church, which is so originally name the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, which was formed after the Bolshevik revolution. Most Russian-Americans and Inuits will identify themselves as simply Russian Orthodox for simplicity (and honestly, I'm not sure if most are even aware of this), but they are two differen churches which have differed greatly on much (the canonization of the Romanovs was a huge dividing point between them.)

[GMantis]

GMantis,

That was outstanding.  And you're right about some groups unfairly castigating the Orthodox for the use of icons.  That's sort of like the old Protestant canard that "Catholics worship Mary". Pure silliness.

Thanks very much.  I am still waiting for you to post something that is not useful or informative!  You are among the best of us.

Thank you for the kind words. They are especially appreciated from someone who also always tries to contribute constructively to the forum!

[GMantis]

I think it's worth noting that the Russian Orthodox Church is basically non-existant outside of Russia. Russian communities abroad have their own church, which is so originally name the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, which was formed after the Bolshevik revolution. Most Russian-Americans and Inuits will identify themselves as simply Russian Orthodox for simplicity (and honestly, I'm not sure if most are even aware of this), but they are two differen churches which have differed greatly on much (the canonization of the Romanovs was a huge dividing point between them.)

That group still regarded itself as part of the Russian Orthodox Church and recently restored its relations with the patriarchate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Church_Outside_Russia
The same happened with the Bulgarian Orthodox Church diocese after Communists came to power in Bulgaria, but they restored relations earlier.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Well they didn't impose an atheist regime which greatly persecuted the church in Russia. Nor were the daughters and son necessarily vile people (bugs me when people say "children" here, the oldest one was 22, only two of them were under 18, and of those one was 17, with 16 generally considered the age of adulthood in Russia at the time.) But like soulty is saying, it's become more of a Russian nationalist institution than a religious one. What's amusing would be having the Romanovs and a Bolshevik as saints (please note that there is close to 0% chance of this occurring, but the fact that anyone is even seriously suggesting it...)

The Old Believers disagree.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The Old Believers weren't the ones who canonized the Romanovs.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

The Old Believers weren't the ones who canonized the Romanovs.

Yeah but the Romanovs did persecute and the old believers hold the current church to be illegitimate so...

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

...That has nothing to do with my response to Xahar's point.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

...That has nothing to do with my response to Xahar's point.

Do I have spell out my suppositions? Are you incapable of reading between the lines?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

No what I'm saying is your entire point is moot.

Xahar was basically saying canonizing Stalin doesn't seem as ridiculous with the Romanovs canonized. I pointed out that unlike Stalin they didn't at least persecute the institution doing the canonization. That's not the Old Believers. So what they did to other churches is moot. Hell there's no doubt quite a few Catholic saints who weren't too friendly to other churches as well.

[GMantis]

What's the point of this discussion? The Russian Orthodox church will canonize Stalin when he comes back from the dead and restores the Soviet Union, so to use this as some evidence how bad the church is seems rather absurd.