SENATE BILL: Ukrainian Technical, Economical and Military Aid (Debating)

[windjammer]

I appreciate the conversation, and truth be told, I am deeply in favor of capitalism, but honestly I probably agree more with Senator TNF on what our foreign policy should be. What makes this part of our business? We already have a lot of issues we need to look at.

Maybe preventing an another Hitler?

[windjammer]

I appreciate the conversation, and truth be told, I am deeply in favor of capitalism, but honestly I probably agree more with Senator TNF on what our foreign policy should be. What makes this part of our business? We already have a lot of issues we need to look at.

Maybe preventing an another Hitler?

Putin's not Hitler. Say what you will about Putin, he's certainly not that.

Putin is as imperialist and warmonger as Hitler.

[windjammer]

I appreciate the conversation, and truth be told, I am deeply in favor of capitalism, but honestly I probably agree more with Senator TNF on what our foreign policy should be. What makes this part of our business? We already have a lot of issues we need to look at.

Maybe preventing an another Hitler?

Putin's not Hitler. Say what you will about Putin, he's certainly not that.

Putin is as imperialist and warmonger as Hitler.

Mike Godwin would frown upon you

Who is Mike Godwin?

[windjammer]

I appreciate the conversation, and truth be told, I am deeply in favor of capitalism, but honestly I probably agree more with Senator TNF on what our foreign policy should be. What makes this part of our business? We already have a lot of issues we need to look at.

Maybe preventing an another Hitler?

Putin's not Hitler. Say what you will about Putin, he's certainly not that.

Putin is as imperialist and warmonger as Hitler.

Mike Godwin would frown upon you

Who is Mike Godwin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Well, with a subject like Ukraine, it wasn't really difficult

[windjammer]

"Workers of the world, unite."

[windjammer]

How and by the way, do you realize that $5B represents absolutely nothing in term of spending for Atlasia?

[windjammer]

Don't worry

[windjammer]

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The results of the vote:
Aye (3): Senator TNF, Senator Bore, Senator Tyrion
Nay (3): Senator Lumine, Senator Alfred, Senator Yankee (yep, even lean Nay, that's still a Nay )
Non voting (4): Senator Shua (too late Shua, sorry), Senator Griffin (obviously too late ), Senator Goldwater, Senator DC
The VP shall break the tie.

[windjammer]

So I shall break the tie:

Seriously, I'm saddened to see that 4 senators missed the vote. Well, this is a problem with communication I guess. You were probably unaware there was a vote.
So, first reform I will do: I will PM all of you when I will open a vote!

Now, the amendment.
I would have loved asking some questions to TNF before breaking the tie, but I was unable to do so. So I will ask these questions right now. TNF, I know you have some problems with a storm in Kentucky, so take your time for answering to my questions (but I would like you to answer to mu question?)

1)

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2)

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What's the problem with that? I don't understand. This is not something we should advocate diplomatically? I don't understand why you want to delete that. That's not controversial at all.


3) 2.

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What's the problem with that again?


4)

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If I understand correctly, you want to spend more money in Atlasia, and not for foreign countries. Well, that's fine. The only problem is that this is ONLY 1 BILLION. Do you realize how 1 BILLION represents absolutely nothing? I mean, our spending, this isn't something like 2000B? Wow, that seems to be a great progress in term of our spending. We would spend 1 Billion less.


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5 ) Now I have a question for TNF, Tyrion, Bore and Adam, who all voted for TNF's amendment.
Why did you vote for this amendment seriously?
Maybe not Tyrion, but I recall correctly, TNF, Bore and Adam, you all describe yourselves as "socialist" (or even communist for TNF);, or at least social democrat.
So I think I need to quote Marx: "Workers of all countries, unite".
Don't you believe you're a bit against Marx by voting for amendments throwing under the bus Ukranians???


Oh and TNF, please. The Ukrainian resistance isn't nazi.

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Now, I will explain how I view the situation (hthe debates have ended on this amendment, so I can do that!)

I think that unfortunately some senators are unable to be against "Russia" because of its past (and really, I believe this is a reason, although this is psychological, so some senators don't even know that about them). Let it be clear: Russia has NEVER been a paradise for workers. The USSR was obviously a dictatorship, and Putin has obviously not improved the situation at all.
When I see Russia, well, what I see is a current dictator (Putin) and oppresing Russians and the minorities. Yep, I don't think I have to remind all of you the recent laws that passed in Russia about homosexuality. And not only the gay people, but the other minorities as well (like Tchetchenia for example). I would like all senators to remember that before voting.

And especially TNF, who was so vocal to his opposition of Israel, claiming that Israel was apartheid, and that Atlasia should break all relations with Israel. (but with the good job of Superique and the former SoEA, the situation has improved). I would like he uses his energy against Israel as well against Russia. Regarding minorities (gay, ethny,...), Russia is indeed much worse than Israel.

Now, speaking about Lumine's bill. I obviously support it. I don't see the problem with this bill, and really. This bill has only used "diplomacy". This isn't like using the threat of military intervention against Russia or anything like that. And 5 billion represent absolutely nothing in term of spending for Atlasia... To be honest, I sincerely believe this bill doesn't go far enough. We shouldn't only help Ukrainians, we should take economic sanctions against Russia!

Making the world safer is a necessity. Isolationnism is truly not an option anymore. With globalization, we're forced to cooperate with other countries, even if we don't like them. We're the most powerful country of the world, this is our duty to do that. Especially when it doesn't undermine our interests at all. We need to make the world safer. Protecting relatively "weak" countries from agressive and powerful countries like Russia. (that's why I hope we will be able to reform UNO).

And for those who don't believe at all in this ideal. Keep in mind that b protecting Ukraine, we're protecting our interests. If Ukraine falls, other countries will soon fall as well: the baltic countries, then Poland,... By doing nothing, we risk to lose our influence in the world: politically, but economically as well. I mean, for instance, an independent Ukraine will be more open than a colonized Ukraine for trade with the USA...

And finally, I read some concerns made by Deus about "this help risks to be hijacked by corrupt people." Yep, corruption is a problem in Ukraine. But I don't believe simply cutting the economical help is the answer to this. I'm sure the senators will be able to propose amendments ending this problem. I don't know, like watching carefully how this money is spent. I believe trying to solve the problem is a better solution than simply throwing Ukrainians under the bus.


So: NAY
 

[windjammer]

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The results of the vote:
Aye (3): Senator TNF, Senator Bore, Senator Tyrion
Nay (4): Senator Lumine, Senator Alfred, Senator Yankee, VP Windjammer
Non voting (4): Senator Shua (too late Shua, sorry), Senator Griffin (obviously too late ), Senator Goldwater, Senator DC


This amendments fails.
I, Windjammer, president of the Atlasian Senate, certify these  results are accurate.




Please Yankee, tell me these results are accurate .

Shua and Griffin's votes are invalid because they voted too late (after 3 days!). I guess?

[windjammer]

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This amendment Tyrion.

1) Why deleting the Preamble, Tyrion? There is nothing controversial. Maybe you're openly backing the annexation of Crimea by Russia?

2) Why deleting section 1? I don't see how this is controversial.

3) Why deleting the "unity part". How is this controversial? Are you supporting a divided Ukraine? What's the problem with this part?

4) What's the problem with the former section 2 point 2? In which way helping the Ukrainians to face the problems with gaz is controversial?

5) And finallyn, why cutting the aid by 1B? 1 Billion represents absolutely nothing in term of spending for Atlasia (our spending= something like 2000B???). But for Ukraine, it is important 1B.
So why constantly cutting the aid? I honestly just see a reason: Ukrainophobia.


I would like to remind all of you, and especially you Tyrion, that Russia is far worse than Israel on minority matters. Yep, Russia passed recently anti gay laws for isntance. And ti's better not to be in ethnic minority (like Georgian,...) if you want to save your life. Russia is far worse than Israel for that.

Considering you voted for the TNF plan, completely ending any economic relations with Israel (=economic sanctions) few weeks ago, a plan much more agressive than the Lumine's plan. So I would like to know, why constantly voting for these amendments, especially because you supported something much more aggressive against Israel few weeks ago?

And please,
1) The Ukrainian resistance isn't nazi.
2) And yep, spending can be hijacked by criminals. That doesn't mean cutting is the right thing to do. The best is to improve a bit (like watching seriously how this would be spent,...). I mean, every government spending can be hijacked by corrupt people. Does that mean the atlasian government spendings shall be cut entirely? I'm sure, considering your party, you don't support that .

I don't understand your concerns with this bill:
1) There is no miitary intervention
2) and there isn't even economic sanctions against Russia.

[windjammer]

1 Billion, or 5 Billion, isn't chump change.  I'm definitely willing to spend something on this bill, but I do have concerns about whether it is a wise amount of spending on this. If it is less, I have a feeling it will be invested more wisely. I am concerned about Ukraine, but there are a lot of other areas in the world that could use our help too, and so spending too much here is an opportunity cost both at home and abroad.

Well, I understand your concern. But seriously, debating between allocating 5B or 4B, that's not really a lot of differences.

I hope you have read the DemPGHWindjammer platform on foreign policy. That could answer to some of your questions regarding what the DeMPGH administration wants to do in term of spending!

[windjammer]

Since Lumine is friendly to shua's amendment,

Senator, you have until July 07, 2014, 10:18:25 pm to object to shua's amendment.

[windjammer]

Thank you for your answer Senator Tyrion.

[windjammer]

So, what is the status of my amendment?

Don't worry shua! When this is 10pm in Virginian, this is something like 5am in France, so I was just sleeping, I don't forget you .

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Without any objection, shua's amendment passes.
I, Windjammer, President of the Senate, certify these results are accurate.

[windjammer]

Senator Lumine, friendly or hostile?

[windjammer]

Senators, you have until July 11,2014, 9:45:11 am to object to Tyrion's amendment.

[windjammer]

Please Lumine, wait for the end of the other amendment before saying you're hostile or not .

[windjammer]

Without any objection, Tyrion's amendment passes.

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I, Windjammer, President of the Senate, certify these results are accurate.

[windjammer]

Senator Lumine, friendly or hostile to senator TNF's amendment? ()

[windjammer]

Senators, you have 24 hours, before I start a vote.

[windjammer]

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH Sorry! The veto override isn't in this thread! I will soon resend a PM to all the senators!

[windjammer]

[quote author=Amendment Offered]Ukrainian Technical, Economical and Civic Aid Act:

The Senate of Atlasia recognizes the need for further action to support the government and the people of Ukraine against Russian aggression, especially in economic terms. Therefore, the Senate hereby authorizes both an aid package in support of the people of Ukraine, and a series of measures in order to maintain this support in the most efficient way possible:

Section 1: Recovery of Assets:

1. The Secretary of External Affairs, in coordination with the Attorney General and the Secretary of Internal Affairs, shall assist, on an expedited basis as appropriate, the Government of Ukraine to identify, secure and recover assets linked to acts of corruption by Viktor Yanukovych, members of his family, or other former or current officials of the Government of Ukraine in any jurisdiction through appropriate programs.

Section 21: Democracy and Technical Assistance:

The Secretary of External Affairs shall, subject to the availability of appropriations, through Atlasian foreign relations and development agencies and through nongovernmental organizations:

1. Improve democratic governance, transparency, accountability, rule of law, and anti-corruption efforts in Ukraine, supporting efforts by the people and institutions of Ukraine to foster peace among the people and regions of the country, supporting the people and Government of Ukraine in preparing to conduct and contest free and fair elections, including through domestic and international election monitoring.
     1.1. A specific amount of money (see Section 4) is to be allocated to help Tatar minorities formerly living in Crimean to relocate to either Ukraine of the United StatesRepublic of Atlasia (as specified by the Crimean Crisis Act of 2014), and support them in economic terms.
2. Assist in diversifying Ukraine's economy, trade, and energy supplies, including at the national,
regional, and local levels, with a special focus in achieving energy independence for Ukraine in regards to the Russian Federation, especially in light of the blatantly hostile rises in Russian prices for oil and natural gas for sale to the Government of Ukraine.

Section 32: Appropriations:

The Senate of Atlasia grants the following appropriations to accomplish the goals and directives listed on this Act:

4.1. The Senate appropriates $3 billion for the activities mentioned in Section 21.

4.2. An additional $2 billion shall be made available to the NGOs handling appropriations in the form of 30-year term interest-free loans, to be administrated by the Department of External Affairs, in order to facilitate the creation of Russian-dependence-reducing revenue-generating energy solutions.

4.3. Any NGOs receiving or handling appropriations listed before shall be selected by the Secretary of External Affairs while meeting the following criteria:

-The NGOs cannot be involved in any way to the Government of Ukraine and/or Ukrainian politicians, they cannot be involved in any way to the Government of Russia and/or Russian politicians and they cannot be associated with any kind of discrimination.
[quote]

A vote is now open.
Please senators, vote AYE, NAY or Abstain.

[windjammer]

Can someone explain the isseus with the top paragraph, I don't recall seeing them articulated.

Sen. TNF has what some might call a hate-boner for the current Ukrainian government, it seems.

Yeah, I tend to think Nazis should be shot instead of supported.

So you would support a bill much harder against Putin, good to know.
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This has enough votes to fail.
Senators, you have 24 hours to change your vote.

[windjammer]

You don't have to give vote change periods on amendment votes, Windjammer. For one thing, the amendment vote is only three days long and thus the productive value is absent when the sole purpose of such is to effect an earlier end. Case in point, your vote change period ends at one, the three days at three. That is why amendment votes just end whenever six uniform votes are present. On final votes, it has more purpose since the vote is longer.

Oooops, sorry! I knew that, but I just didn't pay attention . Thanks Yankee