The Oldiesfreak Deluge of Absurdity, Ignorance, and Bad Posts III

[bedstuy]

I agree with all of these.  And Macklemore is nothing special.  I don't know if Macklemore's success is because of white racism though.  I think his "socially conscious" lyrics, sales and cuteness all factor in. 

Kanye is far more socially conscious than Macklemore, the latter has just taken on an issue that's basically safe (especially in 2013/14) and devoted a third of said song to insisting he wasn't gay. Meanwhile, actual intelligent lyrics about the systematic racism that pervades America today are rejected by the Grammy committee.

I think Macklemore has pretty uninteresting lyrics, but homophobia is still a major issue, particularly in the hip-hop and black community.  Plus, his music is just safer and more wholly positive.  There's a reason why he's perceived as more of a politically aware artist.

I like Kanye's music, but he does throw around the N-word and he's a fairly misogynist and materialistic in his lyrics.  I don't see how he has much of a social conscience outside of protesting for Kanye West's rights.

White liberal racism example #2523647

How is anything I said racist?

[bedstuy]

I agree with all of these.  And Macklemore is nothing special.  I don't know if Macklemore's success is because of white racism though.  I think his "socially conscious" lyrics, sales and cuteness all factor in.

Kanye is far more socially conscious than Macklemore, the latter has just taken on an issue that's basically safe (especially in 2013/14) and devoted a third of said song to insisting he wasn't gay. Meanwhile, actual intelligent lyrics about the systematic racism that pervades America today are rejected by the Grammy committee.

I think Macklemore has pretty uninteresting lyrics, but homophobia is still a major issue, particularly in the hip-hop and black community.  Plus, his music is just safer and more wholly positive.  There's a reason why he's perceived as more of a politically aware artist.

I like Kanye's music, but he does throw around the N-word and he's a fairly misogynist and materialistic in his lyrics.  I don't see how he has much of a social conscience outside of protesting for Kanye West's rights.

White liberal racism example #2523647

How is anything I said racist?

Nothing was racist, but you are taking the fact that Kanye is using the N-Word and saying that sets a bad example. All socially conscious rappers use that term. It is sometimes offensive and sometimes not, all depends on who is saying, why they are saying it, and if it ends in -a or -er. They are after all different terms.

Secondly, Kanye is actually anti-consumerist, and has spoken out against being overly materialistic. As for misogynism? Lol, just Lol. Too $hort is misogynist, Kanye not at all.

I was talking about the public perception of each person's music.  Using the N-word makes you sound like an idiot to most people, even if you're black.  It's just something that most people find at least impolite and threatening.  Plus, Kanye is a strange person and he often seems mentally ill, so he gets some flack in the media and criticism world for that.

In terms of the actual content of Kanye's lyrics, I think there's certainly a lot of interesting social commentary in there.  But, there are plenty of really problematic messages in there too.

[bedstuy]

Nothing was racist, but you are taking the fact that Kanye is using the N-Word and saying that sets a bad example. All socially conscious rappers use that term.

Lol, is that like a No True Scotsman thing?

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I'm sure a black 50 years ago would be relieved if the dialect of the whites in his area made use of the former.

How much time have you spent in the black community?

And where is anyone condoning whites using that word in either form? Kanye isn't white the last time I checked.

I don't think black people should use the n-word.  It's certainly not as bad when a black person says the n-word compared to a white person.  But, that doesn't mean it's an appropriate way to speak and it doesn't mean it's not damaging to the black community.

[bedstuy]

The black community has turned a disgusting word with a horrid past that was used to demean them into a word of strange pride and unity amongst a certain segment of the population. I see no problem with this.

Name another group of people in America that constantly refers to other people of that group in racial terms, forget the racial epithet part.  We don't have Chinese people saying, "Hello my Chinese-American friend," to each other all the time.  It's just weird to constantly reference race and turn the normal descriptive word for a person into a very loaded, racial descriptor.  I think that promotes a worldview that puts black folks as separate from the rest of society and distinctly inferior and degraded.  

And, yeah, I realize I'm automatically racist for having opinions about a group of people I don't belong to.

[bedstuy]

I for one am glad that black people have bedstuy to tell them what's appropriate.

Skin color isn't a prerequisite for expressing an idea.  What a racist concept. 

[bedstuy]

I for one am glad that black people have bedstuy to tell them what's appropriate.

Skin color isn't a prerequisite for expressing an idea.  What a racist concept. 

Against whom is it, in this particular instance, racist?

Black people, I suppose.  But, I was being facetious. 

[bedstuy]

The black community has turned a disgusting word with a horrid past that was used to demean them into a word of strange pride and unity amongst a certain segment of the population. I see no problem with this.

Name another group of people in America that constantly refers to other people of that group in racial terms, forget the racial epithet part.  We don't have Chinese people saying, "Hello my Chinese-American friend," to each other all the time.  It's just weird to constantly reference race and turn the normal descriptive word for a person into a very loaded, racial descriptor.  I think that promotes a worldview that puts black folks as separate from the rest of society and distinctly inferior and degraded.  

And, yeah, I realize I'm automatically racist for having opinions about a group of people I don't belong to.

There's obviously no comparison in severity... but many folks where I grew up were proud to self-identify as "guidos", but don't you dare call them that yourself unless you're a friend.

Marginalized out-groups have reclaimed slurs against them since time immemorial, it's a natural coping mechanism and, no, I don't personally feel it's right to police that coming from a position of privilege.  "Another group of people" would be, I assume, most of them.

The guido thing is neither here nor there for me.  It's not really a similar word, but if people used it in the same way, I would have similar problems.  For me, the more similar situation is gay people and the word f****t.  Some gay people will use f****t similarly to the n-word, in the sense of reclaiming it.  I find that similarly problematic.   

And, again, I don't buy into the racial boundary here.  Some people like using that word and they have some valid reasons I'm sure.  Let them defend their use of language on its own terms.  I think language matters and it's something we all ought to think about and consider for ourselves. 

[bedstuy]

The guido thing is neither here nor there for me.  It's not really a similar word, but if people used it in the same way, I would have similar problems.  For me, the more similar situation is gay people and the word f****t.  Some gay people will use f****t similarly to the n-word, in the sense of reclaiming it.  I find that similarly problematic.   

And, again, I don't buy into the racial boundary here.  Some people like using that word and they have some valid reasons I'm sure.  Let them defend their use of language on its own terms.  I think language matters and it's something we all ought to think about and consider for ourselves. 

Well, I don't really agree but I'm glad you're consistent at least.

Just to address the word f****t a little more.  I would never use it because I've had people use that word in a hateful way against me and in the course of assaulting me.  I think that's the same for a certain generation of black people from the South who experienced the n-word in a violent context coming from white people.  But, I also don't see anything empowering about using f****t.  I think it's transgressive and shocking, which some people like, but it's not a benefit to the gay community at all.

But, my larger point is that it's dehumanizing to constantly identify people by their race or orientation.  A straight white guy gets to be some guy.  A gay man is some f****t.  It's fine to describe someone as black or gay, but it's a bad habit and a legacy of hatred and segregation to constantly tag people with their identity.  And maybe I'm old fashioned, but I think there's some vulgar language that should be reserved for a sports field or a poker game or whatever.       

[bedstuy]

Again, racism doesn't end when white people decide that it's over. You don't get to determine whether blackness as a concept is out of date; you're not subject to it.

The behavior of white people isn't the responsibility of black artists; if white people decide that it's acceptable to use racial slurs, that's their fault. Meanwhile, your concern that black people's behavior affects how they're perceived by white people is paternalistic at best. Again, you're just making suggestions for the blacks' own good.

It's easy for white people to not buy into racial boundaries, because white people aren't constrained by racial boundaries.

Essentially, what this comes down to is white people being upset that there's some aspect of society (in this case, the language that black people use among themselves) that white people are unable to control, and consequently taking upon themselves the burden of regulating it. It's really for the blacks' own good, isn't it?

Your model is based on strict racial categories that are out of date at best.
The thing is, it's not just "among themselves."  If rappers think that their promotion of the term is not being picked up by whites, both in usage and in how they perceive blacks, they are deluded. 

Not to pull the black friend card, but we're all part of a multitude of communities.  I have black coworkers, friends, acquaintances, neighbors and members of my family.  I don't fully understand the black experience, as they don't fully understand mine.  But, white and black people share families, cities, neighborhoods and the world.  That being the case, we need to be able to share opinions and worldviews as well.  The "blacks' own good" is absolutely my business as the "whites' own good" is theirs.  I'm sorry if that sounds racist, because I'm pretty sure it isn't.

I understand where people are coming from with the pro-racial boundary, pro- n-word camp.  This type of conversation can turn into this one-way dialogue lecturing black people about bad they are, like it does on Fox News.  I'm sensitive to that and how unhelpful it can be.  But, I think I'm making a valid point and I'm not making it as an attack on black people.  I honestly find  the leftist attempt to protect the black community from anything that seems like criticism to be unhelpful and patronizing.

[bedstuy]

IIRC bedstuy is gay and so there is an equivalent he would be able to use if he so chooses (the f-word), but which he disapproves of from the "inside".  I know that this probably sounds a little too much like diversity bingo- but hearing that he disapproves of his own group's slur does give me some measure of confidence that he's at least arguing in good faith, even if I don't agree.

That's a fair point. I certainly might have used harsher language here than I needed to, but I just have a major problem with the idea of white people policing other groups' behavior, even if (and perhaps especially if) it's well-meaning.

I appreciate that point of view.  I should clarify that I'm not telling people what words they can use.  I'm saying people should be conscientious in using language and think about the effect of what we say.  I don't go up to random black people and demand they stop using the n-word.  But, if say my nephew or a close friend used the n-word a lot, I would want to talk to him about it.

[bedstuy]

Some black people are offended when black people use the n-word.  Other black people are not and use the n-word casually and frequently.  Other black people have an opinion somewhere in between.  The question of who is right is a normative question.   It's very complicated, informal, contextual and touchy.  But, it's a normative question that anyone can have a reasoned opinion about.

People who disagree with that proposition just want to flatly dismiss that point and foam at the mouth about it.

[bedstuy]

I completely get that (and I actually agree with you!), my issue was mainly that the opinion from Shua and theotherguywhoIdon'tremember was being dismissed, and people were getting super pissed off all of the sudden, not on its merits, but merely because they are white people stating it.

It isn't because shua is white. It is because he is white and tried to diminish the importance of race when talking about a word that only has meaning in a racial context. Ask visible minorities whether race matters and the answer will be a unanimous yes. Ask white people and it will nearly always be downplayed.

There's a big flaw in your argument there.  The n-word could be a problematic and overused word in the black community, while being far more offensive and universally problematic when used by white folk.  The racial context obviously matters, but it doesn't cancel out the history and meaning of the n-word completely.

[bedstuy]

Just to reiterate my original point, the n-word is a very loaded, problematic word, whomever uses it, but especially when white Americans use it. 

Within the black community, the n-word is not simply an empowering word.  People use the n-word to refer to a certain type of black person, someone who conforms to black stereotypes or has less status. 

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People also use the n-word just to refer to anything as filler.  I've heard black people refer to a white person using the n-word  I've heard black people refer to objects as the n-word.  I don't see some project of togetherness there, it's just a fun word to say so people use it without thinking.  My point is that there's something still very raw and demeaning towards black people there in the word.  Everyone should think before they use it and consider whether they really should.

It's the same basic equation with the word retarded.  I used to say that word until I thought about how it made people feel and the connotations associated with it.  It was fun to use because it was a transgressive swear word, but I stopped.  I'm not the best person to start a similar dialog for black people, but I think it's something everyone ought to consider.