"Snapshots" of English pronunciation

[12th Doctor]

Not "oddly fascinating."  Just plain fascinating.  Great find.

[12th Doctor]

Damn good find.  The particulars of the vowel shift, and the evolution of English have always escaped me, because I can't read IPA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA

Forget anything bad I ever said about you.

[12th Doctor]

I should note, that I always understood that everything shifted up, in terms of vowels, and I knew some "then and now" examples, but this is the first I have understood of how, exactly this charted.

[12th Doctor]

Cool.  I love stuff like this.  Though I wish the "1650 to 1750" pronunciation wasn't in an American accent, which is per se anachronistic. 

Not so fast; the modern American accent is closer to the 1650-1750 English pronunciations than the vast majority of the modern English accents.

Damn good find.  The particulars of the vowel shift, and the evolution of English have always escaped me, because I can't read IPA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA

Forget anything bad I ever said about you.

written <a> sounded a bit like the <a> in modern <father>
written <e> sounded a bit like the <a> in modern <table>
written <i> sounded a bit like the <i> in modern <machine>

That's probably the most important bit.

I got most of that, but it was the progression and how those changes all combined that I never could get a good handle on.  Actually, this is very helpful in another way in that this site gives you all the vowels in IPA, which means I know what it sounds like now.

As for your first point, yeah, I didn't catch that, but modern American English pronunciation simply sounds similar to the Southeastern dialect of the 17th century.

[12th Doctor]

Actually, I wasn't confused about the "why".  I actually knew all that stuff.  When I said "the progression and how all the sounds changed" I meant the actually phonology, not the "process".

[12th Doctor]

Thanks for the chart, but slight problem... I don't speak "General American"... in fact, no one does.  It's a made up dialect.

[12th Doctor]

I don't only say that to be smart, I mean, I speak with a slight Pittsburgh accent, and that accent is becoming less slight the more time I spend here... I always had a "Western, PA" accent but now I am in the epicenter.  Thus, it is difficult for me to be certain if my pronunciation is correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_English

As an example of this, I had no idea that "caught" and "cot" could be pronounced differently until I started taking an interest in linguistics.  Same with "Mary" "Merry" and "Marry"

[12th Doctor]

And that's not even to mention that, on top of that, I personally have a slight "cluttering" problem.

[12th Doctor]

Cool.  I love stuff like this.  Though I wish the "1650 to 1750" pronunciation wasn't in an American accent, which is per se anachronistic. 

Not so fast; the modern American accent is closer to the 1650-1750 English pronunciations than the vast majority of the modern English accents.

Really? 

So when the colonists came over, they sounded more "American" than "British"?  And it was actually the Brits who developed an accent, rather than the Americans?

Well, it wasn't quite like that.  "Accents" or more properly "dialects" vary quite a bit all over Britain.  In fact, it has often been argued that the primary thing that sets apart Scots from the Southern dialects is that the Great Vowel Shift never really happened in Scotland, or at least that it was smothered in its crib, if you will, because some shifting did occur.  Whether it is true or not, dialects in the North have always been far more influenced by Scandinavian than those in the South, even when the majority languages were still Celtic.

Anyway, people from all over the Britain came to America, and naturally, they spoke English.  The English spoken here, as the dialects started to congeal came to strongly resemble that spoken in the far south of England, particularly around London, partially because most of the higher ranking members of society (the Puritans in New England, the Quakers in PA, and the businessmen in Virginia) came mostly from the South of England.

However, when a language becomes isolated, and does not mix with other ways of speaking as readily, and is not coming out of as many mouths, it tends to seize up a bit.  So, the English spoken in the United States stayed in place, while that in Great Britain continued to change.

In fact, in the 1790's-1820's it had become common place for upper class families in Britain to send their children to America to learn how to speak "properly."  It's funny, people today associate the English spoken, particularly in the Upperlands of the South, as being uncultured, low-class, degraded, a perversion... actually that dialect is closest to what was spoken 200 years ago, and what people in New York speak is the "perversion".

There is one circumstance, however, that was more of a fluke than anything else, that caused American speech to freeze.  Like I said, the dialects in Britain had existed for centuries, so in each one you had slightly different words, and slightly different pronunciations.  When that happens syllables and sounds tend to disappear or get "clipped".  This was already going on in England during the 17th century, but it continued to proceed to the present day, taking pronunciation further from the "starting point" because once one sound changes in a word, all the sounds change, and then this change tends to be systematic, so the same sounds would be "clipped" in different words.

In the United States, however, Webster standardized a guide to English pronunciation that placed even emphasis on every single syllable in a word.  Listen to American and British pronunciations of words and you will quickly see what I am talking about.  That even emphasis "preserved" the sound system alot better, and language here has evolved less readily as a result.

That being said, American English has changed, and it has developed a number of interesting dialects, most of which are dying out to some extent, but the language situation here is more like the language system in (Southern) England than what is going on in England now.

[12th Doctor]

Also, Hollywood has brought American and British English back together to some extent, ironically because of the British patterning what they heard in American films.  British actors also had to make their pronunciations "more American" so that they could be in those films.

My Great Grandfather once said that when he went to England, prior to the mass media exchanges, it was extremely difficult for him to understand what the British were saying, even in the middle class parts of London... and he was not an uncultured guy.  He was an attorney who spoke Latin and French.  Today, most Americans would have no trouble conversing with most Englishmen.

[12th Doctor]

And it should be noted that the Noah Webster situation is very rare.  Normally what the pedants have to say about language doesn't matter.  People just keep right on speaking the way they are speaking, and then in the next generation, you get a new set of changes, and a new set of pedants, who accept the changes of their generation as perfectly "good", but are now complaining about the new changes that are coming happen, and how those signify that the language is going to the dogs.

But, with Webster, you had a country that did not have very well established dialects.. even now, or perhaps, it would be better to say, even 40 years ago when American dialects were at their height, the differences between speech in the United States, and the dialect differences in other countries were minor.  Secondly, Webster's way of speaking became incorporated into the education of every single child who went to school, as Webster's primer for reading in pronunciation became the primer in every American school house.  So these kids, who didn't have ingrained dialects, learned to speak the standard that Webster laid down, and it stuck.

[12th Doctor]

I think we should bring back Thorn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(letter)

[12th Doctor]

BÞW... one of Þe Þhings I just noticed is Þat Þe woman in Þe example is speaking a more advanced dialect for Þe specific time period, which might be Þrowing off our conception of how faiÞfully she is following IPA pronunciation.  Þe man is meant to represent the conservative speakers.

[12th Doctor]

Question?  Based off of what I know, you create the characters you used with Alt Gr... but when I try to use Alt Gr... well, first I don't have an Alt Gr just another Alt, but mine only opens up window options.  How can I access those characters?

[12th Doctor]

Where is the rawest, least corrupted dialect of English spoken?  Scotland?

There really is no such thing as "corruption" in language, because the term suggests that there is such a thing as "language integrity" which there is not.  Language is constantly changing.

If you want to find the "least" corrupt version of English, then you have to go back to the first thing ever spoken by humans.  There was no point when that suddenly became the next thing, which suddenly became Proto Indo European, which suddenly became Proto Germanic, which suddenly became Western Germanic, which suddenly became Old English, which suddenly became new English, and so on.  It was just a long continuum of evolution.  One sound, or word evolving into another, while all this was evolving apart in different areas of the world.

To get to the point of your question, though, if you really want the "least corrupt" version of English possible, then its actually Icelandic which is the closest thing, still being spoken, to Old English.

[12th Doctor]

Now, the closest living relative of English is Frisian, but it has undergone a number of changes, some making it similar to English, some making it different.  Icelandic is pretty close to what the Anglo-Saxons were speaking 1000 years ago.

[12th Doctor]

Well, it wasn't quite like that.  "Accents" or more properly "dialects" vary quite a bit all over Britain.

They're mostly more accents than dialects these days, sadly (you can blame mass culture for that). And once upon a time, more than that really. The distinctive words don't get used so often, even where the accents remain strong.

One thing I always find very sad is the death (within the lifetime of my parents, not even my grandparents) of the traditional calls to animals; they were probably older than almost any English word still in use.

Of course, as much of "edge" of British English has been shaved down by, of all things, the influence of American mass media.  However, even today, the dialect variances you find in Britain are far greater than those in the Unites States.

As Americans, we often fall under the misconception that, only in America are people speaking these "bastardized" dialects, because when we learn "French", or "Italian" there is only one French or Italian language and everyone there speak that, right?  

As I am sure you well know, yes, there is a standard Italian that is used by the government, and media, but a 5 year old child from Turin and a five year old child from Naples would not be able to have a conversation.  At that age, all they have been exposed to is their local dialects, and the local dialects in those places are so different from one another as to be almost mutually unintelligible, and yet they are both still under the umbrella of "Italian".  Now, kids are malleable, and they would be able to pick up on one another's speech pretty quickly, but it would still take a while.

[12th Doctor]

Or an even better example would be Arabic.  In the West, we look on a map and see that almost the entire Muslim world speaks one language; "Arabic".  And the hot new trend for your career path is to learn to speak "Arabic".

But what we think of as Modern Standard Arabic, which is used in that region in the Quran, print and news media is not what people there actually speak.  In reality, what someone is Morocco is speaking is totally different from what someone in Egypt is speaking.  Modern Standard Arabic is used in that region the way Latin was used in Europe in the Middle Ages, but just like with that situation, most of what is spoken on the ground has diverged considerably in the last 1000 years.

Even people who understand that there is a difference will often say that "well, you have Egyptian Arabic, and Gulf Arabic, and those are different dialects."  Well, those two "dialects" are at least as different from one another as French and Spanish, and yet we call those "languages."

[12th Doctor]

Or an even better example would be Arabic.  In the West, we look on a map and see that almost the entire Muslim world speaks one language; "Arabic".  And the hot new trend for your career path is to learn to speak "Arabic".

But what we think of as Modern Standard Arabic, which is used in that region in the Quran, print and news media is not what people there actually speak.  In reality, what someone is Morocco is speaking is totally different from what someone in Egypt is speaking.  Modern Standard Arabic is used in that region the way Latin was used in Europe in the Middle Ages, but just like with that situation, most of what is spoken on the ground has diverged considerably in the last 1000 years.

Even people who understand that there is a difference will often say that "well, you have Egyptian Arabic, and Gulf Arabic, and those are different dialects."  Well, those two "dialects" are at least as different from one another as French and Spanish, and yet we call those "languages."

Still, Standard Arabic is fairly widely understood, and writing is always in the "Standard".

Question?  Based off of what I know, you create the characters you used with Alt Gr... but when I try to use Alt Gr... well, first I don't have an Alt Gr just another Alt, but mine only opens up window options.  How can I access those characters?

You can use the standard United States–International keyboard layout, but I doubt you'll like what it does to your quotation-mark button.

It took me about a week or two to get totally used to pressing a spacebar anytime after I just want an apostrophe or quotation mark.

Standard Arabic is widely understood by educated males.  It is not widely understood by the lower classes, women and children.

Also, yeah, the writing system is Arabic, but English is written in Latin.  So?

[12th Doctor]

Question?  Based off of what I know, you create the characters you used with Alt Gr... but when I try to use Alt Gr... well, first I don't have an Alt Gr just another Alt, but mine only opens up window options.  How can I access those characters?

You can use the standard United States–International keyboard layout, but I doubt you'll like what it does to your quotation-mark button.

Do you have Vista? If so, I recommend installing this tool, which will allow you to create custom keyboard layouts.

I do have Vista.  How would I swtich my layout to United States International?

[12th Doctor]

Or an even better example would be Arabic.  In the West, we look on a map and see that almost the entire Muslim world speaks one language; "Arabic".  And the hot new trend for your career path is to learn to speak "Arabic".

But what we think of as Modern Standard Arabic, which is used in that region in the Quran, print and news media is not what people there actually speak.  In reality, what someone is Morocco is speaking is totally different from what someone in Egypt is speaking.  Modern Standard Arabic is used in that region the way Latin was used in Europe in the Middle Ages, but just like with that situation, most of what is spoken on the ground has diverged considerably in the last 1000 years.

Even people who understand that there is a difference will often say that "well, you have Egyptian Arabic, and Gulf Arabic, and those are different dialects."  Well, those two "dialects" are at least as different from one another as French and Spanish, and yet we call those "languages."

Still, Standard Arabic is fairly widely understood, and writing is always in the "Standard".

Question?  Based off of what I know, you create the characters you used with Alt Gr... but when I try to use Alt Gr... well, first I don't have an Alt Gr just another Alt, but mine only opens up window options.  How can I access those characters?

You can use the standard United States–International keyboard layout, but I doubt you'll like what it does to your quotation-mark button.

It took me about a week or two to get totally used to pressing a spacebar anytime after I just want an apostrophe or quotation mark.

Standard Arabic is widely understood by educated males.  It is not widely understood by the lower classes, women and children.

Also, yeah, the writing system is Arabic, but English is written in Latin.  So?

No, it's not just that the writing system is Arabic, it's that the writing itself is in Standard Arabic.  They don't write in dialect.  It would be like if we wrote in Old English and spoke what we do now.

Oh, yes.  They wouldn't ever think to write in a local dialect.  But, writing isn't language.  It is a visual representation of language.  The actual language situation there is quite fractious.

[12th Doctor]

I write differently to how I speak. A gap between writing and speaking isn't that unusual.

True.  But you aren't writing in Old English.  That is what this situation would be roughly equivalent to.

[12th Doctor]

Now, the closest living relative of English is Frisian, but it has undergone a number of changes, some making it similar to English, some making it different.  Icelandic is pretty close to what the Anglo-Saxons were speaking 1000 years ago.

Here's a video of a guy using Old English to try and communicate with a Frisian. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34

Especially the part where the farmer says, "You want to milk her...You want the brown cow in England to milk."  Though I think he might actually be trying to speak English there. 

He is cheating a bit, though.  In that conversation, he is sticking specifically to words that have changed little between the two.  Some of the vocabulary in Frisian and English is very similar, even today.  However, there is wide divergence in other areas.

[12th Doctor]

Or an even better example would be Arabic.  In the West, we look on a map and see that almost the entire Muslim world speaks one language; "Arabic".  And the hot new trend for your career path is to learn to speak "Arabic".

But what we think of as Modern Standard Arabic, which is used in that region in the Quran, print and news media is not what people there actually speak.  In reality, what someone is Morocco is speaking is totally different from what someone in Egypt is speaking.  Modern Standard Arabic is used in that region the way Latin was used in Europe in the Middle Ages, but just like with that situation, most of what is spoken on the ground has diverged considerably in the last 1000 years.

Even people who understand that there is a difference will often say that "well, you have Egyptian Arabic, and Gulf Arabic, and those are different dialects."  Well, those two "dialects" are at least as different from one another as French and Spanish, and yet we call those "languages."

Still, Standard Arabic is fairly widely understood, and writing is always in the "Standard".

Question?  Based off of what I know, you create the characters you used with Alt Gr... but when I try to use Alt Gr... well, first I don't have an Alt Gr just another Alt, but mine only opens up window options.  How can I access those characters?

You can use the standard United States–International keyboard layout, but I doubt you'll like what it does to your quotation-mark button.

It took me about a week or two to get totally used to pressing a spacebar anytime after I just want an apostrophe or quotation mark.

Standard Arabic is widely understood by educated males.  It is not widely understood by the lower classes, women and children.

Also, yeah, the writing system is Arabic, but English is written in Latin.  So?

No, it's not just that the writing system is Arabic, it's that the writing itself is in Standard Arabic.  They don't write in dialect.  It would be like if we wrote in Old English and spoke what we do now.

Oh, yes.  They wouldn't ever think to write in a local dialect.  But, writing isn't language.

No, but I was just making the point that learning Arabic in schools isn't totally useless, especially if you're, say, a religious studies major and want to read the original Quran... or if you're ordering from a menu or looking at shops or trying to read a book.

I didn't mean to imply it was useless.  My point was about the huge divergence of the spoken language.  You are, of course, correct on your points.