Is salvation primarily based upon luck?

[12th Doctor]

It's a good question and some faiths and denominations answer it better than others. Though this is always worth consideration at the first instance.

When Gentiles who do not have the law keep it as by instinct, these men although without the law serve as a law for themselves. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts. Their conscience bears witness together with the law, and their thoughts will accuse or defend them on the day when, in accordance with the gospel I preach, God will pass judgment on the secrets of men through Jesus Christ Paul 2:14-16

The book of Paul?

[12th Doctor]

It'd interesting what churches say about that.

Most American Christians are probably convinced that Christianity is the only way to salvation, but you will here different opinions elsewhere.

My German catholic priest (who I had in religion in school), for example, said that anybody could be saved, regardless of their personal convictions, as long as they were doing what they believe to be morally correct.

The Catholic Church believes that anyone can be "saved," but in order to do so they must accept Christ.  For those who died following other faiths, this happens at an unspecified time following their death when Christ presents himself to the deceased in all his glory.

[12th Doctor]

The Catholic Church believes that anyone can be "saved," but in order to do so they must accept Christ.  For those who died following other faiths, this happens at an unspecified time following their death when Christ presents himself to the deceased in all his glory.

So then what rational basis is there for adhering to Catholic doctrines throughout one's lifetime? With nothing tangible to prove or disprove the validity of Catholic thought, one might as well wait until they have died to learn the truth. What benefits other than possible intrinsic satisfaction (which is most likely entirely dependent upon the person rather than the religion itself) come from being a Catholic?

Or am I looking at it the wrong way?

Well, Catholicism naturally believes that it is the best "path" to salvation, if you will.  Afleitch actually puts it very well.

Salvation in Catholicism is a fairly complex thing.  But to put it in very simple, almost vulgar terms.  Will we think no one is guaranteed salvation, ever, period... we also believe that no one is left out, for any reason, period... and that everyone has the hope of obtaining eternal life.  All salvation comes through the grace of God, ultimately.  Grace comes through the sacraments... not because the Church says so, or "filling up" on sacraments means you are holier (in fact, the Church discourages this... each person is only allowed communion twice per day, unless there is some extraordinary circumstance), but because Jesus instituted these as "signs" if you will, for the faithful... so that in a way, the faith of that person in Christ is still more important than the act itself, because they believe in the sacrament, because they believe in the words of Christ and his power to save.  That being said, grace doesn't come only through the sacraments, and an individual who does good, but does not have "faith", can have a hope at attaining salvation, again, not as something "earned", but as something granted through the mercy of Jesus.

As I said, this doesn't lack for complexity and nuance.

[12th Doctor]

The Catholic Church believes that anyone can be "saved," but in order to do so they must accept Christ.  For those who died following other faiths, this happens at an unspecified time following their death when Christ presents himself to the deceased in all his glory.

So then what rational basis is there for adhering to Catholic doctrines throughout one's lifetime? With nothing tangible to prove or disprove the validity of Catholic thought, one might as well wait until they have died to learn the truth. What benefits other than possible intrinsic satisfaction (which is most likely entirely dependent upon the person rather than the religion itself) come from being a Catholic?

Or am I looking at it the wrong way?

Well, Catholicism naturally believes that it is the best "path" to salvation, if you will.  Afleitch actually puts it very well.

Salvation in Catholicism is a fairly complex thing.  But to put it in very simple, almost vulgar terms.  Will we think no one is guaranteed salvation, ever, period... we also believe that no one is left out, for any reason, period... and that everyone has the hope of obtaining eternal life.  All salvation comes through the grace of God, ultimately.  Grace comes through the sacraments... not because the Church says so, or "filling up" on sacraments means you are holier (in fact, the Church discourages this... each person is only allowed communion twice per day, unless there is some extraordinary circumstance), but because Jesus instituted these as "signs" if you will, for the faithful... so that in a way, the faith of that person in Christ is still more important than the act itself, because they believe in the sacrament, because they believe in the words of Christ and his power to save.  That being said, grace doesn't come only through the sacraments, and an individual who does good, but does not have "faith", can have a hope at attaining salvation, again, not as something "earned", but as something granted through the mercy of Jesus.

As I said, this doesn't lack for complexity and nuance.

Hmm. So the sacraments are to you what ritual prayer is to us?

I suppose you could say that.  We pray too, of course. 

[12th Doctor]

The Catholic Church believes that anyone can be "saved," but in order to do so they must accept Christ.  For those who died following other faiths, this happens at an unspecified time following their death when Christ presents himself to the deceased in all his glory.

So then what rational basis is there for adhering to Catholic doctrines throughout one's lifetime? With nothing tangible to prove or disprove the validity of Catholic thought, one might as well wait until they have died to learn the truth. What benefits other than possible intrinsic satisfaction (which is most likely entirely dependent upon the person rather than the religion itself) come from being a Catholic?

Or am I looking at it the wrong way?

Well, Catholicism naturally believes that it is the best "path" to salvation, if you will.  Afleitch actually puts it very well.

Salvation in Catholicism is a fairly complex thing.  But to put it in very simple, almost vulgar terms.  Will we think no one is guaranteed salvation, ever, period... we also believe that no one is left out, for any reason, period... and that everyone has the hope of obtaining eternal life.  All salvation comes through the grace of God, ultimately.  Grace comes through the sacraments... not because the Church says so, or "filling up" on sacraments means you are holier (in fact, the Church discourages this... each person is only allowed communion twice per day, unless there is some extraordinary circumstance), but because Jesus instituted these as "signs" if you will, for the faithful... so that in a way, the faith of that person in Christ is still more important than the act itself, because they believe in the sacrament, because they believe in the words of Christ and his power to save.  That being said, grace doesn't come only through the sacraments, and an individual who does good, but does not have "faith", can have a hope at attaining salvation, again, not as something "earned", but as something granted through the mercy of Jesus.

As I said, this doesn't lack for complexity and nuance.

Hmm. So the sacraments are to you what ritual prayer is to us?

I suppose you could say that.  We pray too, of course. 

Of course, but not nearly as often. Right?

Well, not in a formulated and formalized 5 times a day, no... certainly, many Catholics don't pray, in any form, nearly as often as that.  I personally don't do a lot of formal prayer.  I mostly just talk and share my thoughts... not that God doesn't know them... basically, it s a glorified for of talking to myself... but I do it often.