Well, this was supposed to be my response in my other thread, but...

[12th Doctor]

I don't really feel like answering every persons individual concerns, so let me just discuss them generally...

First off... I have had 15 hours to think and sober up... and I am no less angry than I was last night.

Allow me to go into a little more detail about those things I mentioned last night.

First off, to those of you who blame one of my best friends for his sexuality combined with his support of the Republicans, or in some other way insinuate that he deserved this, I say f*** you.  I know this might be impossible for you to understand (esspecially Opebo and BRTD), but his sexuality is not the sole motivating force behind his politics.  On 90% of all the other issues, he sides with our party.  You might also be suprized to know that I acctually have a few gay friends who do think this way.

And I have an even bigger shocker for you... no one on the campaign, including the Senator cared in the least that my friend was gay.

I can kill many birds with one stone by just telling you the story.  About six weeks ago, a memo came down to all of us from Harrisburg.  We were told to be watchful of what we did because the Casey camapaign, rather than spending money on building a campaign organization, was spending their money hiring private investigators to follow us around and dig up anything they could that might be potentionally damaging.  The reason I never mentioned it before, and the reason it was not made public was because this information had been handed down to us by a few people who had defected from the Casey campaign, sighting Casey's current and planned tactics as their reason for leaving.  Disclosing this woudl have nulled and voided any valuable information they could give us.  We know they were being truthful because everything they gave us happened exactly as they said it would.

Anyway, the day after this memo went out, my friend got a call from Harrisburg saying that the Casey people have something on him.  He obviously knew what it was right away.  Not even five minutes after the end of this call, Senator Santorum, the mean evil, nasty guy who hates everything, including puppies called my friend up and said he was sorry that this had happened and asked if their was anything he could do for my friend.  The Senator made it very clear that he didn't care if my friend was gay or not, he and the rest of the campaign would stick by him if the Democrats decided to release this to the media.

Well, two weeks passed by and we held our breathe, then the Fooley scandal hit.  The Democrats took advantage of the event (assuming they had not planned it) to make up a list of all homosexual staffers who are working for GOP Congressmen and circulate it around Washington to all the various right-wing groups.  My friend got a call and was infomed that he (along with a couple other Santorum staffers) was on the list, even though he wasn't even government staff.

Now, one can imagine how if might feel to a person to be outted in front of all of Washington.  Outted by the same people, no less, who life to trumpet what friends they are of the homosexual community.

I myself believe that I was followed and my personal affiars tampered with on a few occations... somethings seemed to have gone mysteriously wrong with my car for no reason.  And someone hit it while it was parked in the lot in such a way so as they would have had to have gone out of their way to do so since it was only exposed on one side, the exposed side was located on the opposite side of the alley from the driving side and it was, at least in theory, shielded by another car, in short, there is no way someone did not intentionally ram it.  Rather odd that it shoudl happen immediatly after my name was put on the list of official campaign staff.

There is much that I coudl talk about, but I will mention what happened ove rthe weekend to prove my point and then move on...

All this weekend, we had phone banking to identify voters and make sure they get out to the polls.  Our office was filled with people.  I drove by that day, since I was in the neighborhood, to see what the Dems had going.  There were three people in their office.

At about 2pm Saturday (and again on Sunday and Monday) a blue bus plastered with Casey signs arrived and blasted very loud music into our HQ... so much so as we could not get any work done.

This was not an off-the-cuff thing, they had obviously planned for this, because the Twp that our office is located in had no regulations against public noise and, unlike their HQ, there is plenty of public parking around.  We caleld the police, but they couldn't do anything... they finally left at 6pm (each day).

So, that was the Casey campaign in a nutshell, they didn't do anything to help out their guy, their whole effort was centered around making it as hard for us as possible.  Nice people.  Obviously love their guy more than they hate us.  Casey is obviously a uniter with some great ideas.

As I said, it doesn't end there, but that is an idea.

Now... as for the nature of this kind of camapign, I have never endorsed it, and the Senator did not run this kind of campaign.  Santorum at least tried to talk about the issues.  Casey made Santorum the issue.  This hurts me all the worse because I have now met with the Rick several times and he is a good man, funny, attentive and genuinely concerned.

This is not to mention the multiple reports that we got of the voting people having trouble with the voting machines in the county and having either accidentally voted Casey or have had to push the button for Santorum four times before if you come up as Santorum and not Casey.  The over-all county election judge (who is a huge lib and owes his job to the his Democrat wife) told us that he investigated the claims and found no evidence of wrong doing.

Finally, I am pissed off because I personally have met with a lot of the people, both politicians and staffers, who lost their jobs last night.

If Casey didn't know what his campaign was up to in all these dirty tricks, then what does that say about him?  That he is disinterested.  That he is not attentive.  That he is not a leader.  That he shoudl be more like Rick, who was intensly involved with every detail of his campaign.

If he he did know, then he is truely not only an idiot and incompetant, but also a terrible human being.

Either way, I'll look forward to beating him in four years when he runs for governor.

P.S.  Dave how many times have I asked you to take away my moderator status?  Dozens.  I kinda know how Rumsfeld felt... how many times do I have to offer my resignation before you will accept it?

I would much rather have the freedom to say what I want without having to worry about how it makes the forum look.  I'm not Alcon, I don't care nearly so much about propriety.

[12th Doctor]

1) Anyone who thinks that the papers up here would not print such a story obviously has no expirience dealing with the Erie Times.  When we first heard, we assumed that the motive for releasing it would be one of 3 things.

a) to kill our volunteer base just before the election

b) sheer vindictivness

c) release it later when my friend runs for office... of course this is still quite possible

2) I have no proof to give you directly, since I never sought to obtain the list.  All I can say is that that is exactly what happened and if I exagerated it, lied about it of in anyother way knowingly misrepresented it then may God strike me dead right here.

When it happened we found out through a series of phone calls from people in the Santorum staff and other places in Washington and Harrisburg.  It's how the rest of the staff who did not know about it found out.  Trust me, this was very real.

3) I am not dead... so I assume that means I am telling the truth

4) My anger will die when we defeat Bobby Casey's run for governor in 4 years and then end his political career.  No sooner.  No later.

5) As for my allusions that will end, or at least seriously hamper my friends career... just wait until he runs for something.

6) It doesn't matter if the Senator cares, voters will.  Even if my friend is not the candidate, his being highly placed on anyone's staff is now a potnetial liability.  Lucky, Phil English does not care, but he is also retiring after this term.

7) I am not Lee Atwater, Karl Rove or Rush Limbaugh, nor is my friend.  Wakie, I never liked you and I never will and your suggestion that we deserve this because of some mythical relationship we have with the political manuverings of those other individuals only solidifies my conviction.

[12th Doctor]

Sore Loserman

You know what the best part of all of this is?  Casey didn't have to do a single one of these things to win.  He and his campaign just did them out of pure spite and vindictivness.

You have chosen to try to belittle me by saying that thsi is about me being a sore loser when that has very little if nothing to do witht eh reason I am angry.

[12th Doctor]

Santorum will be too busy spewing hate...

 and forcing his children to look at their dead brother.

Oh the irony of this statement.

[12th Doctor]

Gay Republican officials are Uncle Toms. They should be outed b/c their hypocrisy is not a private matter. The damage the Republican party causes to gay relationships hurts millions of people. Not being allowed to marry or be recognized causes social and financial difficulties that straight people never have to worry about.

Oh, and BTW, you know how my friend woudl respond to this?

"I'm not so insecure that I need a government institution to tell me that my love is okay."

I guess you guys just see things differently.

[12th Doctor]

2) I have no proof to give you directly, since I never sought to obtain the list.  All I can say is that that is exactly what happened and if I exagerated it, lied about it of in anyother way knowingly misrepresented it then may God strike me dead right here.

When it happened we found out through a series of phone calls from people in the Santorum staff and other places in Washington and Harrisburg.  It's how the rest of the staff who did not know about it found out.  Trust me, this was very real.

3) I am not dead... so I assume that means I am telling the truth

So you never saw this list and have no proof that it exists other than the word of:

"people in the Santorum staff and other places in Washington and Harrisburg"?

....um....yeh....... b/c I 100% trust the word of anonymous Santorum staffers and complete strangers from Washington and Harrisburg. Lord knows there are no dishonest people among those three groups of people. Personally I have never met a dishonest person from D.C. or a dishonest Santorum supporter (rolling my eyes....).

You're gonna need to do a lot better than that, Soulty. You have not provided even the scent of credibility that your accusations might be true. I wasn't trying to be insulting before, but you need to either put up or shut up as they say.

Yes, because it is far far far more likely that Santorum's offices in Harrisburg and Washington, people at the Club For Growth, people in Phil English's office, people in the Heritage Foundation, etc, etc ocastrated this massive conspiriacy to make my friend think that this list exists than it is that the list might acctually exist.  MY friend saw the list, BTW, and the only reason I never saw it is because I never cared to look.  I can tell you, however, that I consoled my friend for several minutes after we were told it came out.  I can also tell you that many of the people who called (not in the campaign) asking if it was true politely told my friend that he could stop associating with them once he told them that it was.

[12th Doctor]

Gay Republican officials are Uncle Toms. They should be outed b/c their hypocrisy is not a private matter. The damage the Republican party causes to gay relationships hurts millions of people. Not being allowed to marry or be recognized causes social and financial difficulties that straight people never have to worry about.

Oh, and BTW, you know how my friend woudl respond to this?

"I'm not so insecure that I need a government institution to tell me that my love is okay."

I guess you guys just see things differently.

I've never heard a gay person(s) say that they wanted the government to okay their love, Soulty. Never. All I've heard them tell me is that they want the government to leave them alone and to not say that their love ISN 'T okay.

You're almost as good at twisting people's words into something completley different than what they said as your precious Santorum is. I'm sorry - was.

Seeing as this is exactly what he said when I asked him a question falling along those lines I haven't twisted anything.  I merely stated what he told me.  Since I support civil unions I hardly see how you can turn this on me.  All I was stating was that not all gays think alike and not that supporting Santorum need not mean that my friend is a traitor or deserved to be followed by a private investigator and outted.

[12th Doctor]

Gay Republican officials are Uncle Toms. They should be outed b/c their hypocrisy is not a private matter. The damage the Republican party causes to gay relationships hurts millions of people. Not being allowed to marry or be recognized causes social and financial difficulties that straight people never have to worry about.

Oh, and BTW, you know how my friend woudl respond to this?

"I'm not so insecure that I need a government institution to tell me that my love is okay."

I guess you guys just see things differently.

With all respect, do you really think the point of gay rights is to sanction homosexuality so people "feel better"?

No, I don't.  I was merely combating the accusation what my friend is somehow a hypocrite or deserved what he got.

[12th Doctor]

Where is your proof that Democrats compiled a list of known gays and circulated it around Washington?

New York Times Article

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Thank you.  I was looking for that article.  The information was obtained by the Casey campaign, as I said, through people who were following my friend around.  The list was then compiled by groups working for the Democrats and circulated.

Exactly as I said.

P.S.  And the reason that we know that they were working for the Dems is because that is the only way they could have obtained the information on my friend.  They would have had to have gotten it from Casey's people.

[12th Doctor]

1. If your friend can't get elected in Erie then perhaps he should move somewhere where being a gay Republican isn't a death sentence.  These places do exist.  To be quite honest with you, this is perhaps the best thing that could have happened to him.  There is nothing that voters hate more than finding out that something is being hidden from them.

Well, the Erie suburbs already elected a gay Republcian... one who just got ousted this year, as a matter of fact, and someone that I know personally.  During the campaign, the Democrat used certian little code phrases several times which were intended to put the idea in people's heads without just saying it.  I am assuming that, if they had any evidence, they would have just broke the story.  The code phrases included "I am a family man and **** is not."  "I have raised a family."  "I am married and **** is not."  They have proof on my friend.  We know from the Casey defectors that there is real evidence.

That's not the point anyway, the point is that Casey should be spending money campaigning rather than on sending private detectives around to follow our staffers.

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I'm not sure what qualifies me as being "hard right"... I mean, I voted for Ed Rendell who I used to think was the worst kinda of politician until Casey came along... he makes Rendell look like a saint.

However, had you been a fly onthe wall at HQ over the course of the last three months and esspecially after we found out what the Casey people were up to, you would know that I talked down any talk of retaliation and I specifically discussed my displeasure with what I called "Atwater type tactics".

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First off, he did not equate them... as I have said several times, he used the slippery slope argument in his now infamous speech.  The slippery slope automatically means that you view one thing as being worse than another, because you have to "slide into" the worse thing.

Regardless, as much as I hate the saying, I acctually believe that the Senator is one of those "hate the sin, love the sinner" people.  He never treated any of the gays on his staff any differently from others and its been my expirience that he has always reached out to them.

[12th Doctor]

Where is your proof that Democrats compiled a list of known gays and circulated it around Washington?

New York Times Article

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I say again: Where is the proof that DEMOCRATS circulated this list as Soulty claims?

As I said, the evidence was gathered by people working for Casey, thus their woudl have had to have been direct cooperation.

[12th Doctor]

 During the campaign, the Democrat used certian little code phrases several times which were intended to put the idea in people's heads without just saying it.  I am assuming that, if they had any evidence, they would have just broke the story.  The code phrases included "I am a family man and **** is not."  "I have raised a family."  "I am married and **** is not."  

Wow, Soulty - you know whose tactics that reminds me of?

Well, besides every single Republican on the face of the Earth.....it reminds me of how Nancy Pelosi is constantly referred to as a "San Francisco liberal" by the rightwing bigots.

I'll leave it to you to decide what the Republicans are trying to infer about Pelosi when they describe her that way..........

It's funny I've never seen you get all angry about this kind of thing when the republicans have been doing it for years and years and years......

Your argument almost works... if you ignore the fact that Pelosi is married.

Once again, show me proof that I had anything to do with "tactics" of the Republicans and I will grant you your peace on that.  But you can't, because I have spoken out against excessive name calling over Iraq, gay bashing, the religious right.

Every time "my side" has engaged in hypocrisy I have always been one of the first people to call them on it.  What this is all about, and what angers me is how easily the Democrats get away with their obvious hypocrisy.

The Democrats hate privilage... unless your name is Casey or Kennedy.

The Democrats are friends of the gay community... but not gay individuals who support the Republcians.

The Democrats are friends of the black community... but not black individuals who support the Republicans.

The Democrats oppose the "Culture of Corruption" and the "Politics of Personal Destruction"... unless staying true to that gets in the way of their winning.

The Democrats oppose the Religious Right... unless it just so happens that they can use scandals to target them in an election cycle.

Do you know what this reminds me of?

Four legs good.  Two legs bad better.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed with sheets.
No animal shall drink alcohol to excess.
No animal shall kill any other animal without cause.
All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.

[12th Doctor]

Hmmm... well, now that I see that I am being quoted as saying "I am not Alcon" I woudl liek to explain that my comment was not intended to be any kinda of statement against Alcon, and I appologize for it.

[12th Doctor]

Hmmm... well, now that I see that I am being quoted as saying "I am not Alcon" I woudl liek to explain that my comment was not intended to be any kinda of statement against Alcon, and I appologize for it.

you disappoint me, man. I was right there with you, raging against the machine.  I was Dennis Hopper and you were Colonel Kurtz.

And now, what's this?!  you're gone! 

Who will tell your story?

I will! I will tell your story!...:

"I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate the children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for Polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us."

LOL... thanks man, that really did cheer me up, believe it or not.

[12th Doctor]

 During the campaign, the Democrat used certian little code phrases several times which were intended to put the idea in people's heads without just saying it.  I am assuming that, if they had any evidence, they would have just broke the story.  The code phrases included "I am a family man and **** is not."  "I have raised a family."  "I am married and **** is not."  

Wow, Soulty - you know whose tactics that reminds me of?

Well, besides every single Republican on the face of the Earth.....it reminds me of how Nancy Pelosi is constantly referred to as a "San Francisco liberal" by the rightwing bigots.

I'll leave it to you to decide what the Republicans are trying to infer about Pelosi when they describe her that way..........

It's funny I've never seen you get all angry about this kind of thing when the republicans have been doing it for years and years and years......

.

Once again, show me proof that I had anything to do with "tactics" of the Republicans and I will grant you your peace on that.  

Wow. All of a sudden you are interested in proof. LOL!!!!

My God you are the biggest hypocrite on this forum.

I gave you proof, or rather Bacon did.

There is an obvious difference between these circumstances, however... out of my more than 11,000 posts on this forum I am certain that if I approved of these kinda tactics, you would be able to find at least one of my posts over the last 3 years that would show it.  You can provide proof in that way.

I can't bring "The List" (as the NEW YORK TIMES reported it) here to the forum.