Blair loses vote on Terror legislation

[Democratic Hawk]

I am f**ing livid

90 days? The bastards should be held indefinately. Bloody lefty Labour fruits aligning themselves with the feckless Tories and Lib Dims/Dums (whatever?) 28 days is not good enough

Had certain 'Lefties' toed the party line then this would have been the perfect occasion to beat the Tories about their bleeding heads with. How the hell do they expect me to do that, when some of them useless buggers can't even get their own bloody arses into to gear

Civil liberties? What about the rights and liberties of those who died on july 7 or do they not matter? There is a fine line between civil liberties and taking liberties, which is what terrorists do and worse. If the bastards didn't do what they do, then there would be no need for additional security. It's as simple as that

And before any airy-fairy, namby-pamby politically-correctee starts having a go by quoting Benjamin Franklin at me, with due respect to the great man but he never had Islamic militants, who threaten the very fabric of civilised society, to contend with

National security is the first duty of the Prime Minister and I'm disgusted at Blair's enemies (left, right and wherever the Dums and Dims sit) for playing politics with public safety

Dave

P.S. God help my MP if they didn't vote the right way

[Democratic Hawk]

Apparently Howard has said that Blair should resign

Will be interesting to see how this plays electorally; over 70% of the public support the 90 days proposal. Tories could get themselves seriously burned over this...

Howard is a feckless bastard and he knows it

Yes, I do indeed, hope the Tories pay the price for their opportunistic folly at the ballot box

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

I am ing livid :>)

90 days? The bastards should be held indefinately. Bloody lefty Labour fruits aligning themselves with the feckless Tories and Lib Dims/Dums (whatever?) 28 days is not good enough

Well, sentence them in that case.

It takes evidence to launch a prosecution and secure a conviction. Some suspects could be held for 28 days, then released and then embark on some murderous bombing spree

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

I support 60 days. 90 days only with a court extension.

Pretty reasonable, but, as you can gather, not my prefered option. You're out of sync with your party's MPs though. I don't know what the mood is among the Tory rank and file

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

Now then... it'd be nice if we could have a list of rebels (Labour and Tory; if any) on both votes...

That would be nice. I'm sharpening my tongue in eager anticipation. Any Tory who voted for the defeated proposal gets my applause no matter how distasteful their other positions

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

Well, as is expected, I'm the civil libertarian here.

And me the populist-realist

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

Now then... it'd be nice if we could have a list of rebels (Labour and Tory; if any) on both votes...

I'm sure The Sun will name and shame them. I might even buy it

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

Imprisoning someone for three months, on bare suspicion alone and without a trial, is absolutely atrocious and oppressive. I am glad that the measure was defeated.

Odd how a bunch of red avatars here disagree with this simple notion.

Why? Just because I'm not a soft touch when it comes to national security, is no reason why I shouldn't have a red avatar

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

Thankfully, my MP isn't guilty of colluding with the feckless opposition

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

I think The Guardian lists those MPs who didn't vote. Do you know who the real hypocrite was in this vote? The Rev. Ian Paisley of the Democrratic Unionist Party. I've just gone right off that dude

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

I was talking to the Muslims in my local Tandoori last night and they were disgusted that the Bill was watered down. They gave me a nan bread on the house. All law-abiding citizens, who abhor terrorism, should be appalled

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

All law-abiding citizens, who abhor terrorism, should be appalled

The question is not about abhorring or condoning terrorism. It is about whether any person should be condemned for terrorist activities after a fair and impartial trial, or at the whim and pleasure of the government.

I hardly think that the government or police would have used it to detain any suspect at whim. We are the United Kingdom not some 'Banana' Republic

I support 90-days detention in combating terrorism and the criminalisation of its glorification. Perhaps, when terrorists cease in their activity (that is, crimes against civil society), then it would be appropriate to relax security measures. The ball is in their court. It was they who were responsible for 7 July not the British Government

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

I hardly think that the government or police would have used it to detain any suspect at whim.

If we repose such extraordinary trust in the government, we might as well get abolish trials altogether. The same line of reasoning can, after all, be applied to other crimes: "the government would not use the power to detain suspects at whim" in those cases as well.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I do not think that this is relevant.

From what I can gather, totalitarian, which on reflection is what I should have said, regimes do detain their opponents at whim, unlike most, if not all, liberal democracies I merely referred to them for differentiation purposes

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

Apparently Howard has said that Blair should resign

Will be interesting to see how this plays electorally; over 70% of the public support the 90 days proposal. Tories could get themselves seriously burned over this...

Howard is a feckless bastard and he knows it

Yes, I do indeed, hope the Tories pay the price for their opportunistic folly at the ballot box

Dave

Well said!

The problem with the Conservative party is that they are today truly (as Edmund Burke noted) the stupid party.

They mindlessly oppose, without looking at the merits.

Most of them are no better than the Chirac slimebags in France.

Churchill is probably spinning in his grave.

You're spot on there Carl. And they wonder why they have been in opposition for so long. I'll tell you why, they are out of touch - but for what it's worth had this been a Conservative government's initiative, I'd have supported them too (It doesn't mean I could ever vote for them though)

Sadly, the Conservative Party bottled out out of stank opportunism or just simply to woo some Muslim voters - and I hope the price they pay for doing so is ultimately high. As for the airy-fairy namby-pamby Lib Dims/Dums (I can never remember), I wouldn't have expected anything else

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

If anything, it was the what Pete Bell describes as the 'civil libertarian' side of the Conservative Party that shone through here

Would you say 'civil libertarians' comprised a majority of Conservative MPs these days?

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

I'm afraid I do not believe the Conservative party was trying to woo Muslim voters at all

It's possible. They may be be targetting marginal Labour seats with significant Muslim populations, though they'd be competing with that LD lot

I don't think their opposition for opposition's own sake stance has done them any favours. Most people, I've spoken to, including several Pakistani Muslims, agree with 90-day detentions - and not all are Labour voters

I have an even grimmer opinion of the Labour awkward squad allowing themselves to play straight into their hands

I don't think 90-day detentions are unreasonable when it takes a long time to dicipher encrypted codes because many terrorists are computer masterminds these days. It's a dangerous world we live and, sadly, tougher cautionary and preventative measures are a matter of necessity rather than choice

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

There is a first time for everything

This morning I contacted the House of Commons to thank Sir Peter Tapsell (Conservative MP - Louth and Horncastle) for voting for the 90-days detention and putting the interests of both the nation and the general public over petty partisan politics

Meanwhile, I still have plenty of bones to pick with the Labour 'traitors' but they are not beyond redemption yet. I'm a reasonable man

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

Michael Z,

Cripes - any one would think we were on the verge of becoming a police state . The government wasn't proposing internment at whim or detention without the due auspices of the judiciary

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

This gentleman is not for turning . Nothing you, or Ken Clarke, can say is ever going to convince me otherwise. I'm a populist on issues like national security and I tend to think and do what I feel is right for, and in touch with, the people. I also value the rights and liberties, that terrorists don't. Isn't it better to be safe, than sorry?

Were I a Labour MP, I'd have voted for 90 days with sound mind and, more importantly, a clear conscience.  The police, surely, had their reasons for wanting 90-day detentions and, at  the end of the day, it is them, along with our security services, who are charged with the day-to-day prevention of terrorism. Terrorism is a real threat and requires a realistic approach to it

I can only imagine the anguish the House of Commons must have caused most, if not all, of the families of those who died on July 7

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

The public deserve nothing but the maximum effort to ensure that atrocities like July 7 don't happen again. The right of us to live without the threat of terrorist atrocities trumps all else

Generally speaking, only those who are up to no good who have anything to fear . After all, detentions will be subject to judicial review and due process of the law. Of course, errors can be made but as I've said it's better to be safe than sorry. It is partly for this reason, that I oppose the death penality as miscarriages of justice can, and do, occur

If liberals/libertarians had their way, they'd be running amok. There is a fine line between civil liberties and taking (i.e. abusing) liberties

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

Generally speaking, only those who are up to no good who have anything to fear.

What a horrifying thought! Should the government be able to search any home it desires, without a warrant, because law-abiding citizens have nothing to fear? Should the government be able to eavesdrop on private telephone conversations at its whim, because law-abiding citizens have nothing to fear? Should the government be able to install monitoring devices in each individual's house, because law-abiding citizens have nothing to fear?

Why's it frightening? If, at the end of the day, it avoids events like 9/11 and 7/7 reoccuring. Blame the people who inacted those atrocities not the governmentm, police or security services trying to prevent them

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

Let's just say over the weekend and getting plenty of love from a good woman , I've somewhat cooled down on this one

I still think 90 days would have been better - but the House of Commons voted for 28 days and in doing so sent a message of weakness to our terrorist enemines

I only pray that so terror suspect held for 28 days and then released due to lack of evidence, doesn't go on a bombing spree killing and maiming possibly tens or hundreds of people - because, as well, as the terrorists, the British people will rightly blame the feckless parliamentarians - all 322 of them - who waved the white flag

Nuff said

Dave