2008 hypothetical: Bayh/Warner vs. Allen/Sanford

[Democratic Hawk]

They pretended Edwards was moderate.  He was not.  Today they pretend that Mark Warner, a tax hiker, and Evan bayh, who is so eager to pander to the base he actually voted against confirming Condie Rice.  Ben, you say Evan Bayh is a dedicated hawk?  Please.  He is no more a "hawk" than Kerry and Edwards were.

Bayh voting against Condi Rice was not so much pandering to the base but more of a point of principle - he felt Condi Rice and others were responsible for a number of errors in the run-up to and aftermath of Iraq and, therefore, she didn't warrant promotion to Secretary of State. No-one can accuse Bayh as being soft on national security or defence

Conservative commentators were delighted by what Bayh did and saw it as an opportunity to write him off politically in Indiana. In fact, recent polling suggests very much the contrary to their desires and deservedly so

In fact, Bayh had voted against Condi because he felt there other suitable nominees for Secretary of State and, in responce to his critics, he cited Indiana's own Dick Lugar

As for pandering to the base, I somehow doubt that. Bayh's success in Indiana is very much down to the fact that he reaches beyond the base - if he appealed to the base and that alone, I somehow think he'd never have one an election in Indiana let alone five (three by landslide margins - and it's that fact, which has Republicans pretty fearful of a Bayh candidacy. He'd have to work at it, victory would not be handed on to him on a plate

You also point out that Bayh doesn't look presidential. Well, Bush looks anything but except that he is President - for reasons that continue to elude me

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

They pretended Edwards was moderate.  He was not.  Today they pretend that Mark Warner, a tax hiker, and Evan bayh, who is so eager to pander to the base he actually voted against confirming Condie Rice.  Ben, you say Evan Bayh is a dedicated hawk?  Please.  He is no more a "hawk" than Kerry and Edwards were.

Bayh voting against Condi Rice was not so much pandering to the base but more of a point of principle - he felt Condi Rice and others were responsible for a number of errors in the run-up to and aftermath of Iraq and, therefore, she didn't warrant promotion to Secretary of State. No-one can accuse Bayh as being soft on national security or defence

Conservative commentators were delighted by what Bayh did and saw it as an opportunity to write him off politically in Indiana. In fact, recent polling suggests very much the contrary to their desires and deservedly so

In fact, Bayh had voted against Condi because he felt there other suitable nominees for Secretary of State and, in responce to his critics, he cited Indiana's own Dick Lugar

As for pandering to the base, I somehow doubt that. Bayh's success in Indiana is very much down to the fact that he reaches beyond the base - if he appealed to the base and that alone, I somehow think he'd never have one an election in Indiana let alone five (three by landslide margins - and it's that fact, which has Republicans pretty fearful of a Bayh candidacy. He'd have to work at it, victory would not be handed on to him on a plate

You also point out that Bayh doesn't look presidential. Well, Bush looks anything but except that he is President - for reasons that continue to elude me

Dave

As usual I find my self agreeing with you Hawk.

I don’t know which Evan Bayh, Ford thinks he is talking about but Bayh is a moderate he has voted for restrictions on abortion, voted in favour of hawkish measures on national defence and never sought to apologise to his base for either, as you say his vote on Condi’s nomination was because he believed that Dick Lugar was a better candidate… to say that Bayh’s voting record is indistinguishable from either Edwards or Kerry is simply delusional…

The fact that Ford focuses most of his fire on Warner suggests to me that Ford simply doesn’t know that much about Evan Bayh and rather than admit to it would like to stick to a flawed preconception… indeed likening either Bayh or Warner to Edwards or Kerry is just plain out-loud funny.

Ford’s little rants against both Warner and Bayh just gets worse when he somehow argues that all moderate democrats are some how cowards and yet moderate republicans are at the same time worthy of respect while their democratic counterparts are to quote Ford “Spineless”… a fine double standard if I ever saw one. Ford’s argument he would claim rests on the notion that neither Warner nor Bayh have political courage, firstly you do not need to be a political partisan or moderate to demonstrate political courage, indeed Rick Santorum and Russ Feingold are just as much brave politicians as Chuck Hagel and John Breaux, but saying that neither Warner nor Bayh have exhibited political courage is to ignore the facts…

Warner demonstrated great political courage in one of his first ventures as Virginia Governor, he introduced a tax rise to help increase funding for education in his state, which Ford castigates him for, not only did he get his tax rise passed by the GOP controlled legislature, in a deep red state but he remains very popular despite the best efforts of the national and state GOP. How many first term governors could have not only got such a contentious measure passed but emerged as both a more popular and stronger politician?

As for Evan Bayh. His politician career is a litany of occasions where he has challenged the liberal leadership of the party and argued for the socially moderate, hawkish brand polices that characterised the Democratic Party of Truman, Kennedy and Johnson. He has repeatedly fought against the pro-choice lobby and advocated a foreign policy approach which he believes is in the country’s best interests not because it wins him friends at the DNC, or brings in the cheques from the Liberal pressure groups.     
       
… I really am surprised by you Ford, normally you’re a reasonable sorta guy but all of a sudden your acting like a jerk, laying into politicians for being cowards or empty suits when neither is ture, I’m not supporting Warner for the nomination I agree he’s inexperienced, but liberal? A political coward? He is neither I’m afraid and nor is Evan Bayh.     

I’m sorry you find the fact that I describe myself as a moderate democrat “insufferable”, but it is nothing new, the fact that I oppose Roe V Wade, support the right of schools to choose to hold prayers before lessons,  believe in an assertive foreign policy, recognise the need for social security to be reformed, support the rights of states to make their own minds up on many issues and believe that by and large low taxation can stimulate economic growth places me on the right or conservative wing of the party, at the same time I’m quite happy to admit to some populist or should I say liberal that I believe that universal health coverage for all Americans is a goal that we have a moral obligation in seeking to achieve, what is more I believe the state does have a role in bring jobs to deprived areas and fighting to promote American exporters and protect American jobs.

Am I wrong to describe my self as moderate? Are my beliefs without credibility because they are not radical? I really have to say I expected more than name calling from you Ford.                                        

Agreed, Ben. I share your surprise with Ford, whom I'd actually found to be one of the more sound/reasoned Forum Republicans

Dave