Opinion of the Republican Party

[Fuzzy Bear]

My general rule of thumb is that if I cannot see Edmund Burke as a member of the Republican Party, than it is off track.


It is off track!

The Republicans have become a party of zealous radicals, dogmatic ideologues and thieves. Rationality, common sense, principles and values have been tossed to the wayside in the name of political expedience. This is a process that really began in the 1990's and has only accelerated to the point where we have state party's debasing the courts for partisan gain, become wholly dependent on gerrymandering, and have sacrificed the full faith and credit of the treasury so that special interests can be paid off monetarily.

Don’t you mean Ed Brooke

No I mean the founder of modern Conservatism. Burke was against radical politics, hated fiscal irresponsibility/gov't corruption and valued both tradition and reform guided by restraint and historical norms.

He would not approve of making judges partisan offices like happened here in NC, would not approve of not only conceding too but embracing systemic deficiencies like gerrymandering, would not approve of the debt and deficit spending and would not tolerate the corruption and special interest gratifying that occurred especially in the mid 2000's.

Don't forget that I am pro-life, mostly pro-gun and support decentralization of gov't authority on many domestic issues. Why would I use a liberal Republican from 50 years ago as a litmus test?

This.

Low but so is my opinion of the Democratic Party

And this.

[Fuzzy Bear]

My Bible Verse for a Democratic Party progressively more hostile to Christians:

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My Bible Verse for a Republican Party that creates greater income inequality by the day:

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Here's the Bible Verse that should govern domestic policy.  Read carefully.

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[Fuzzy Bear]

My Bible Verse for a Democratic Party progressively more hostile to Christians:

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My Bible Verse for a Republican Party that creates greater income inequality by the day:

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Here's the Bible Verse that should govern domestic policy.  Read carefully.

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What about those of us who think the idea of God is morally reprehensible? Should the government be forcing us to live according to God's preferred domestic policies?

That sounds like theocracy, they have one of those in Iran you know.

Lots of people are all for Social Darwinism until they discover that they're not amongst "the fittest".  I'll bet you wake up one day and conclude that about yourself one day, when your circumstances are different than they are now.  On that day, your present philosophy of life will be less attractive to you.  I pray that on that day others will have more empathy for you than ou currently display for others.

[Fuzzy Bear]

The Republican Party is currently dead and has been taken over by Donald Trump.

I left it, and I'm never coming back.  Its membership and its voters are far removed from civil discourse, genuine patriotism, and rational thought.  The GOP died in 2016 by their embrace (even if it was at first unwilling) of Donald Trump.  No matter what they do from this point on, it will never be enough to win me back because I'll never forget how they caved in the face of fascism in America.

Any current Republican voter who detests Trump but has yet to leave the party should really rethink that decision.  Your party is gone and it won't be rebuilt in any recognizable form in your lifetime.  For you, there are limited options...either you cave as the rest of your party has to Trump, or you vote Democratic despite policy differences.  Third party won't cut it in this era because the stakes are now too high.  When fascism reigns supreme in the White House, your only patriotic option is to vote it out, even if that means voting Democratic.  We either move forward or we get steamrolled by our enemies Trump has allied himself, and by default our government, with.  Life is not often black and white, but when Trump is in the equation there is no gray; you can either vote Democratic and get your country back, or you vote for Trump (third party votes=a vote for Trump).

Special K, you're normally a thoughtful poster, but your analysis of the GOP defies the facts.

Trump did nothing but appeal to the GOP as it was, and it was a party where large numbers of its constituency were folks that were for protectionism and reduction of illegal immigration.  But much of what you don't like about the GOP has been there since Ronald Reagan.

Fascism?  What about Dick Cheney's Closet Presidency?  What about the Patriot Act and the massive growth in public surveillance during the GWB years?  What about wars on false pretenses?  What about anti-labor legislation tied to national security legislation.

People object to Trump's style and his displacing Establishment figures, but the GOP itself isn't much different than it was in 2000.  If anything, it's a broader based party; future Presidential nominating contests aren't going to be all about "Who's the REAL conservative? anymore.

[Fuzzy Bear]

My Bible Verse for a Democratic Party progressively more hostile to Christians:

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My Bible Verse for a Republican Party that creates greater income inequality by the day:

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Here's the Bible Verse that should govern domestic policy.  Read carefully.

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What about those of us who think the idea of God is morally reprehensible? Should the government be forcing us to live according to God's preferred domestic policies?

That sounds like theocracy, they have one of those in Iran you know.

Lots of people are all for Social Darwinism until they discover that they're not amongst "the fittest".  I'll bet you wake up one day and conclude that about yourself one day, when your circumstances are different than they are now.  On that day, your present philosophy of life will be less attractive to you.  I pray that on that day others will have more empathy for you than ou currently display for others.

I know I'm not the fittest, I'm weak and worthless, I probably deserve to die, and when I do I fully expect that when I die I'm going to spend an eternity burning in hell. The only reason I still consider myself worthy of life at all is because I haven't encountered an obstacle that's impossible to overcome yet.

However I, in my early 20s, am still 100 times the person either of my parents will EVER be. God is going to reward them for evil, I will be punished for being responsible. Interesting huh?

I really hope you don't believe what you say you believe.  I really hope you're just being overly dramatic.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Both parties right now are controlled by their own version of PC Outrage Warriors


Republicans by Right Wing PC Outrage Warriors

Democrats by Left Wing PC Outrage Warriors

[Fuzzy Bear]

The Republicans are bad, but they're what they've been.

The Democrats have betrayed those who viewed them as the party of the working person.  They're not; they're the party of SJWs, illegal aliens, elitist femnism and the LGBT movement.  They became this at the expense of being the party of working people because they didn't want to hear the moral reservations working people had at the rest of their agenda.

I will vote for Democrats occasionally.  I've actually voted for more Democrats than Republicans since 2006.  But I don't know that I can ever self-identify as a Democrat again, because, in many ways, they have become a moral cesspool, advocating social experimentation that risks what societal stability we still have. 

[Fuzzy Bear]

illegal aliens 

Leviticus 24:22 – “There shall be one law for the native and for the alien who resides among you.”

Leviticus 19:33-34 and 24:22 – When the alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien.  The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt:  I am the Lord your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:18-19 – “For the Lord your God...loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing.  You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.”

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Implying that we aren't disproportionately poor and working class due to discrimination.(I'm not, but I'm not the topic here).

I love it when people who view Scripture as complete nonsense quote it to me to make an argument.  I am reminded of when Satan, himself, quoted Scripture to Jesus when he was fasting in the wilderness, in order to tempt him into rebelling against God, the Father.  But I digress.

Leviticus 24:22 – “There shall be one law for the native and for the alien who resides among you.”  And we do.  Our immigration laws apply to citizens and aliens alike.  The Constitution applies to persons, and not merely citizens in terms of the Bill of Rights.

Leviticus 19:33-34 – When the alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien.  The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt:  I am the Lord your God.”  And that is the basis on which legal aliens, legal refugees, and legitimate asylum seekers should be dealt with.  The confinement of illegal aliens pending deportation also ought to be humane, even those who have committed the felony of reentering the US after being deported.

Deuteronomy 10:18-19 – “For the Lord your God...loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing.  You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.”  Oh, absolutely.  Of course, the . . . in your quote implies something important was left out.  Pray tell, what was that?  Here's Deuteronomy 10:14-19:

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As a nation, we have striven to do all of these things.  But at no time did God forbid walled cities; indeed, he ordained Nehemiah to reuild the walls of Jerusalem.  Open Borders were not God's plan.  There is a difference between loving the transgressor of law and allowing transgressions to go unpunished.  

We are commanded not to be mean-spirited about our immigration laws, and, as a nation, we are not.  But the Children of Israel had walled cities, because there were real enemies wishing them harm that those walls provided them protection from.  Should we release all murderers from prison; all rapists and child molesters, all spousal batterers, because we are commanded to love them?  Taking your somewhat cherry picked theology to its next step, what I've just suggested is a logical conclusion.  

That also brings up the matter of "culture".  In the same books you quote, there are strong admonitions to the Children of Israel not to adopt aspects of pagan culture.  God's concern was that taking on practices such as tattooing (a clearly pagan concept) would be a step in forsaking Jehovah God for the Gods of the Pagans.  This is a recurring Old Testament theme; God did not want His People to adopt the ways of Pagans and Unbelievers.  Do you really think it was the will of God, the Father, to allow unbelievers and pagans to live with his people in such a way that their culture would be changed to where the ways of God's people were not visible?

What our immigration policy should be is open for debate, and there are Scriptural questions that I doubt Trump has even considered.  (Scriptural ignorance is at an all time high right now.)  But I fail to see where Scripture mandates open borders, and I fail to see where Scripture mandates that America not have an ICE organization to enforce those laws.

[Fuzzy Bear]

illegal aliens 

Leviticus 24:22 – “There shall be one law for the native and for the alien who resides among you.”

Leviticus 19:33-34 and 24:22 – When the alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien.  The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt:  I am the Lord your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:18-19 – “For the Lord your God...loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing.  You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.”

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Implying that we aren't disproportionately poor and working class due to discrimination.(I'm not, but I'm not the topic here).

I love it when people who view Scripture as complete nonsense quote it to me to make an argument.  I am reminded of when Satan, himself, quoted Scripture to Jesus when he was fasting in the wilderness, in order to tempt him into rebelling against God, the Father.  But I digress.

Leviticus 24:22 – “There shall be one law for the native and for the alien who resides among you.”  And we do.  Our immigration laws apply to citizens and aliens alike.  The Constitution applies to persons, and not merely citizens in terms of the Bill of Rights.

Leviticus 19:33-34 – When the alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien.  The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt:  I am the Lord your God.”  And that is the basis on which legal aliens, legal refugees, and legitimate asylum seekers should be dealt with.  The confinement of illegal aliens pending deportation also ought to be humane, even those who have committed the felony of reentering the US after being deported.

Deuteronomy 10:18-19 – “For the Lord your God...loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing.  You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.”  Oh, absolutely.  Of course, the . . . in your quote implies something important was left out.  Pray tell, what was that?  Here's Deuteronomy 10:14-19:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

As a nation, we have striven to do all of these things.  But at no time did God forbid walled cities; indeed, he ordained Nehemiah to reuild the walls of Jerusalem.  Open Borders were not God's plan.  There is a difference between loving the transgressor of law and allowing transgressions to go unpunished.  

We are commanded not to be mean-spirited about our immigration laws, and, as a nation, we are not.  But the Children of Israel had walled cities, because there were real enemies wishing them harm that those walls provided them protection from.  Should we release all murderers from prison; all rapists and child molesters, all spousal batterers, because we are commanded to love them?  Taking your somewhat cherry picked theology to its next step, what I've just suggested is a logical conclusion.  

That also brings up the matter of "culture".  In the same books you quote, there are strong admonitions to the Children of Israel not to adopt aspects of pagan culture.  God's concern was that taking on practices such as tattooing (a clearly pagan concept) would be a step in forsaking Jehovah God for the Gods of the Pagans.  This is a recurring Old Testament theme; God did not want His People to adopt the ways of Pagans and Unbelievers.  Do you really think it was the will of God, the Father, to allow unbelievers and pagans to live with his people in such a way that their culture would be changed to where the ways of God's people were not visible?

What our immigration policy should be is open for debate, and there are Scriptural questions that I doubt Trump has even considered.  (Scriptural ignorance is at an all time high right now.)  But I fail to see where Scripture mandates open borders, and I fail to see where Scripture mandates that America not have an ICE organization to enforce those laws.

I'm quoting scripture because, A. I agree with a decent chunk of the bibles stuff(eg don't let people starve) and B. You don't get to use scripture to give your beliefs GODS BACKING if you ignore it (or rationalize "be humane to immigrants" into making it okay to send people back to impoverished places torn apart by violence because laws) when its inconvenient.

Again:  You don't believe in Scripture as the infallible Word of God.  Here's some more quotes from  Leviticus:

Leviticus 18:22 - "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them."

Is this really where you want to take the argument?

If you are so concerned about the sojuouner, where is your outrage toward Mexico?  After all, the masses of Hondurans and Salvadorans that crash our borders illegally sojourn through Mexico.  Why isn't Mexico providing these folks sanctuary?

America does, indeed, take in refugees.  We clothe them, feed them, give them asylum (if called for) if they are legitimate refugees.  Not all are, however.  And I fail to see where the Books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy require Israel to accept the entire World's refugees and starving, then or now.

Now I believe we should help people where they are at.  We have done so with significant results.  The lot of people in South Korea and India have improved tremendously in my lifetime.  We are in a position to render assistance to Honduras and El Salvador, but it also remains that much of their problems is due to their own problems with corrupt governace and transnational gang violence.  Is it humane to allow transnational gang members to enter the United States?  In loving the people of Hunduras, have we been loving to the people of Brentwood, NY, whose town is beseiged by MS-13?

There is a gap betwen Scripture and what you advocate. 

[Fuzzy Bear]

illegal aliens

Leviticus 24:22 – “There shall be one law for the native and for the alien who resides among you.”

Leviticus 19:33-34 and 24:22 – When the alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien.  The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt:  I am the Lord your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:18-19 – “For the Lord your God...loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing.  You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.”

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Implying that we aren't disproportionately poor and working class due to discrimination.(I'm not, but I'm not the topic here).

I love it when people who view Scripture as complete nonsense quote it to me to make an argument.  I am reminded of when Satan, himself, quoted Scripture to Jesus when he was fasting in the wilderness, in order to tempt him into rebelling against God, the Father.  But I digress.

Leviticus 24:22 – “There shall be one law for the native and for the alien who resides among you.”  And we do.  Our immigration laws apply to citizens and aliens alike.  The Constitution applies to persons, and not merely citizens in terms of the Bill of Rights.

Leviticus 19:33-34 – When the alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien.  The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt:  I am the Lord your God.”  And that is the basis on which legal aliens, legal refugees, and legitimate asylum seekers should be dealt with.  The confinement of illegal aliens pending deportation also ought to be humane, even those who have committed the felony of reentering the US after being deported.

Deuteronomy 10:18-19 – “For the Lord your God...loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing.  You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.”  Oh, absolutely.  Of course, the . . . in your quote implies something important was left out.  Pray tell, what was that?  Here's Deuteronomy 10:14-19:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

As a nation, we have striven to do all of these things.  But at no time did God forbid walled cities; indeed, he ordained Nehemiah to reuild the walls of Jerusalem.  Open Borders were not God's plan.  There is a difference between loving the transgressor of law and allowing transgressions to go unpunished.  

We are commanded not to be mean-spirited about our immigration laws, and, as a nation, we are not.  But the Children of Israel had walled cities, because there were real enemies wishing them harm that those walls provided them protection from.  Should we release all murderers from prison; all rapists and child molesters, all spousal batterers, because we are commanded to love them?  Taking your somewhat cherry picked theology to its next step, what I've just suggested is a logical conclusion.  

That also brings up the matter of "culture".  In the same books you quote, there are strong admonitions to the Children of Israel not to adopt aspects of pagan culture.  God's concern was that taking on practices such as tattooing (a clearly pagan concept) would be a step in forsaking Jehovah God for the Gods of the Pagans.  This is a recurring Old Testament theme; God did not want His People to adopt the ways of Pagans and Unbelievers.  Do you really think it was the will of God, the Father, to allow unbelievers and pagans to live with his people in such a way that their culture would be changed to where the ways of God's people were not visible?

What our immigration policy should be is open for debate, and there are Scriptural questions that I doubt Trump has even considered.  (Scriptural ignorance is at an all time high right now.)  But I fail to see where Scripture mandates open borders, and I fail to see where Scripture mandates that America not have an ICE organization to enforce those laws.

I'm quoting scripture because, A. I agree with a decent chunk of the bibles stuff(eg don't let people starve) and B. You don't get to use scripture to give your beliefs GODS BACKING if you ignore it (or rationalize "be humane to immigrants" into making it okay to send people back to impoverished places torn apart by violence because laws) when its inconvenient.

Again:  You don't believe in Scripture as the infallible Word of God.  Here's some more quotes from  Leviticus:

Leviticus 18:22 - "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them."

Is this really where you want to take the argument?

If you are so concerned about the sojuouner, where is your outrage toward Mexico?  After all, the masses of Hondurans and Salvadorans that crash our borders illegally sojourn through Mexico.  Why isn't Mexico providing these folks sanctuary?

America does, indeed, take in refugees.  We clothe them, feed them, give them asylum (if called for) if they are legitimate refugees.  Not all are, however.  And I fail to see where the Books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy require Israel to accept the entire World's refugees and starving, then or now.

Now I believe we should help people where they are at.  We have done so with significant results.  The lot of people in South Korea and India have improved tremendously in my lifetime.  We are in a position to render assistance to Honduras and El Salvador, but it also remains that much of their problems is due to their own problems with corrupt governace and transnational gang violence.  Is it humane to allow transnational gang members to enter the United States?  In loving the people of Hunduras, have we been loving to the people of Brentwood, NY, whose town is beseiged by MS-13?

There is a gap betwen Scripture and what you advocate.  

I'm not arguing that scripture is iron for morality, I'm arguing that you don't get to act like your politics come from the bible when you ignore it when it contradicts your views. You're pretending that the violence that these innocent people face at home is their fault somehow and that all immigrants are MS-13. People in places like Honduras(which was made as bad as it is by US intervention BTW) are hardly "not legitimate refugees". South Korea isn't sending a lot of immigrants BTW. Theres a difference between "taking in all the worlds poor people" and actually giving a decent amount of help. We have a limit on refugees, and if you're the 10,001th(or howevermany the cap is), it doesn't matter how bad your situation is, the US ain't lifting a finger for you.

And I highly doubt that the bible is cool with putting children in cages because of "laws" that never required long term detention of children alone before now.

Again:  You're an unbeliever, so, really, you're just trying to imply that I'm inconsistent.  OK, I'll play along.

It is a fact, however, that within every group of unvetted or minimally vetted refugees we take in are groups of organized folks who mean us ill.  It is small comfort to the folks in Brentwood, NY, whose schools are dominated by MS-13 gang kids, and where MS-13 has been responsible for bringing Brentwood's crime rate to its highest point ever, to know that the majority of immigrants, and even illegal immigrants, are law-abiding; they only know that the pain and loss they've encountered would not have happened if border security was what it ought to be.  

What do you say to these people?  That their loss is a tragedy, but out of it came the wonderful fact of other impoverished immigrants escaping their misery and finding a better life in America?  I tell you what:  I know the way to Brentwood, NY; I'll give you directions and you can tell those folks themselves how their absorption of MS-13 has helped other people in other places have better lives.  If you think you can find the words, you're better at Rhetoric and Communication than I am.  (After all, it was in Brentwood, NY where I took my first college-level Rhetoric and Communication course.)

People think conservatives are paranoid.  Conservatives, on the other hand, see an American left that hates native-born citizens DEMANDING that these citizens give up their firearms, and open their borders to anyone that wants to come, in the wake of San Bernadino and MS-13 and other calamities.  That's an exggerated viewpoint, aggravated by the level of rhetoric, but it's not a totally irrational conclusion.  Perhaps you're right; perhaps folks need to stop being afraid and be big kids and stop sniveling.  But you, and people like you, won't be there when what you propose goes sideways, any more than you were there in San Bernadino or Brentwood.  Who WILL be there to comfort the afflicted will be (A) Clergy (for spiritual comfort), (B) local Law Enforcement (to provide immediate safety) and (C) ICE (to remove the problematic actors).  People such a you won't be there, and wouldn't be of any help if you were. because you have more empathy for the perpetrators than for the victims.  That's one of the things about Trump I DO like; his sympathies are with victims, and not with perpetrators.

[Fuzzy Bear]

(snip)

So where is the Biblical commandment for Open Borders?  These passages call for humane and just treatment of foreigners, but they do not call for, say, the entire Babylonian population to enter Israel, or the entire nation of Philistines to enter Israel. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/12/immigration-detention-centers-children

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The Bible mandates humane treatment, but it does not mandate Open Borders, or the absence of immigration enforcement.  It just doesn't.  I agree that confinement is a bummer, but their parents inflicted this on these children knowingly, did they not?

Why should they not be confined if they are here illegally?  How can one be assured that they'll show for their immigration proceedings?  And why would anyone respect our immigration laws if we gave a blanket amnesty for those already here.  (I'm not unalterably opposed to that suggestion, but I would like someone to address their concern.)  Why are current American citizens served well by that?

Now I'm in favor of easing these people's problems.  I'm all for massive foreign aid to Honduras and El Salvador; a Marshall Plan for these nations if you will.  But let's be honest these are failed states and the sort of government they have and the sort of culture they have are what has produced the problems these nations have.  These nations' experiments in self-government have been failures.  Such a plan would, indeed, be in our national interest, and it would stabilize these two unstable states.  Why not help these people where they're at?  Yes, this would require the Hondurans and Salvadorans to admit their failures at self-government, but why should the obvious not be admitted?

[Fuzzy Bear]

So where is the Biblical commandment for Open Borders?  These passages call for humane and just treatment of foreigners, but they do not call for, say, the entire Babylonian population to enter Israel, or the entire nation of Philistines to enter Israel. 

Because thats exactly whats happening.

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The bible came before that time, so its disingenuous to act like it has a position on this at all. But don't give me this "Actually its the parents fault" BS, the US government is the one putting children in cages for the sake of deterring other immigrants from trying to help their children have a better life.

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Basic humanity you f**kwad.

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Human rights abuses are justified because they make things more convenient? Good to know.

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Why should immigration laws that deport effective refugees be enforced at all? Why do current citizens matter 1000x more than immigrants.

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Don't pretend that US interventions haven't torn these countries apart. This s**t is our fault more then theirs. I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest(presumably that immigrants deserve to be treated like garbage because their birth-nation fell apart or something).

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Why fight so hard to prevent immigration in general. Also, institutions, not culture, is what creates an effective democracy. Your insinuation seems to be that the people of Honduras and El Salvador don't deserve democracy and that the country that elected trump should autocratically control them. Thats f**ked.
[/quote]

I personally advocate reduced levels of immigration because I believe it to be in the best interest of American citizens.  That part, I agree, is debatable, and I have viewed this matter differently over the years, so I'm willing to listen to reasoned arguments.

I believe in our current immigration laws and our right and duty to enforce them because it is consistent with the principle of the rule of law.  The ABSENCE of that principle in Honduras and El Salvador is one of the chief reasons for the failure of these states.  The factionalism and tribalism of these nations is the other reason.  How Americans are to blame for their problems is beyond me.  I know that particular conclustion is leftist dogma, accepted axiomatically and uncritically, but the problems of these nations are the product of the absence of the rule of law. 

These are poor nations, but the idea that the United States is responsible for their poverty is nonsense.  But I'll ask you:  What is YOUR solution to THEIR misery?  What is YOUR pathway to better lives for the whole of Honduras and El Salvador?  Just how does this come about in your mind?  And what is the price American citizens will pay to implement your solution? 

Those are not trick questions.  Perhaps you can step up and be a problem solver.  The world has enough finger-pointers and whiners.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I personally advocate reduced levels of immigration because I believe it to be in the best interest of American citizens.  That part, I agree, is debatable, and I have viewed this matter differently over the years, so I'm willing to listen to reasoned arguments.

You want to leave refugees out in the cold because american citizens don't get benefits from them getting needed help?

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Do you believe that it wasn't okay to defy the fugitive slave law? The problem with these countries is that the government is basically powerless to do anything; many places without strong rule of law are better off then them(corruption tends to be a thing).

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Do you know what imperialism is? Because one thing the US did was overthrew a stable government in Honduras because of its political interests less than 8 years ago. Clearly their fault. The US propped up a horrifically unjust atrocity commiting right wing dictatorship in El Salvador which made sure to keep the people illiterate for decades. Also the US deported gangsters there instead of imprisoning them in the aftermath of that horrific civil war when they were least able to cope.https://www.reuters.com/article/us-el-salvador-violence-idUSKCN0Y221K They brought back US gang culture to an impoverished region where families were torn apart. That is the perfect situations for gangs to massively grown.

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IDK, actually help them? American citizens honestly don't deserve to live with as much above necessity as they do when people are literally starving elsewhere. We're a very rich nation. We can find ways. We can stop sabotaging, and we can stop treating immigrants like s**t and sending criminals to countries without the infrastructure to handle them.

You don't propose any solutions; you just complain about inequality.

Do your work for a living?  Do you support yourself?  If not, I'll note that your solutions represent no sacrifice to you, because you propose giving away  what is not yours to give.

There are those in this forum who agree with you.  What, then, will you say to people who are well off by the standards of the third world, but struggling to make ends meet in the working class (not middle class) at best?  What are you going to say to someone in the middle class who has sacrificed much disposable income to ensure that their children are able to attend a private school because the local public school is gang-ridden and crime-infested?  What is the appeal you will make to those would would actually be sacrificing something because you say it's right that they do?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton used to teach Sunday school. Tim Kaine goes on mission trips.

Everything about Trump was correct.

But Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine claim Christianity while never speaking about the children murdered through abortion and never opposing their party's contempt for religious liberty.  They fully embrace every value of post-Christian America.

You won't tell them how to be Christians. If they don't believe abortion is murder or that people shouldn't be allowed to discriminate minorities, it's their right and doesn't make them any less Christian. Actually, people like you telling everyone that Christianity is about hurting women and lgtbq people is a major reason for the decline of religion in America and elsewhere.

I tell people how to be Christians all the time:



I mean, THIS is how.  One needs to believe that they are sinners, believe that Jesus Christ's death on the Cross is the only acceptable payment for all sin, and receive Him as Savior and Lord.

Receiving Him as Lord is the tough part for most folks around here.  The like the idea of some Socialist Hippie Philosopher doing a Kamikaze Mission so they can rock out in Heaven when they die, but they don't really think He's the Boss, and the ultimate Authority.  In truth, most people's real idea of God on Atlas is an Eternity Sized projections of their own egos.  I know lots of people who are like this and they aren't HPs, but being a Christian means being Born Again.  When folks ask me if I'm one of those "Born Again" Christians, I respectfully point out to them that there isn't any other kind of Christian besides a "Born Again" Christian.  Mere church membership doesn't make one so any more than hanging online with Atlas posters for decent chunks of time would make me a democratic socialst worthy of the maroon avatar.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton used to teach Sunday school. Tim Kaine goes on mission trips.

Everything about Trump was correct.

But Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine claim Christianity while never speaking about the children murdered through abortion and never opposing their party's contempt for religious liberty.  They fully embrace every value of post-Christian America.

You won't tell them how to be Christians. If they don't believe abortion is murder or that people shouldn't be allowed to discriminate minorities, it's their right and doesn't make them any less Christian. Actually, people like you telling everyone that Christianity is about hurting women and lgtbq people is a major reason for the decline of religion in America and elsewhere.

Abortion is the taking of a human life.  That it has been deemed legal in secular American Law doesn't make it OK with God.  In my days as a substance abuse counselor, I worked with women who had abortions, a few after being raped.  In listening to their stories, one thing is clear; the abortion did not mitigate the trauma, and, indeed, compounded it.  I worked in secular settings, and did not discuss my personal views on this subject, but I will tell you that none of these women where wholly convinced that they had done the right thing, and not all of my clientele in those days were particuarly religious.

I don't wish to hurt LGBTQI people, but God has ordained what He has ordained on the subject.  If a person who identifies as LGBTQI wishes to come to Christ and be saved, God will deal with them on the other issue as He deems.  (And, yes, I believe God delivers people from that; it's not too big a job for Him.)  But God has spoken on the subject, and the Bible is clear and unambiguous as to all sexual activity outside of that between a man and a woman married to each other as being Sin.  I wonder if all the people here who wish to be my Sunday School teacher on the issue of the Bible and American Immigration Law would care to actually comment on whether or not God's Word is as authoritative on the issue of homosexuality (a subject on which Scripture is unambiguous).

I want to emphasize, now and always, that on a PERSONAL level, I'm generally OK with what folks do and how they live their lives.  What they do with their lives, within the law, is "on them".  That's speaking for myself.  But when I discuss Scripture, I'm speaking for God, so I need to get that part right.