Shooting at Texas church: At least 20 people dead, 30+ injured. (user search)
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  Shooting at Texas church: At least 20 people dead, 30+ injured. (search mode)
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Author Topic: Shooting at Texas church: At least 20 people dead, 30+ injured.  (Read 8205 times)
Fuzzy Bear
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« on: November 05, 2017, 04:47:57 PM »

In all seriousness, Trump "monitoring" the situation from Japan is much pointless since it's a law enforcement issue right now that the President has nothing to do with. He just wanted to make the situation about him somehow.
You'd be moaning and groaning if he didn't say anything too. Seriously some people on this place, I feel bad for their mental situation after a year of constant hatred of a person.

Believe me, his silence would have solicited nothing but applause from me. When he doesn't comment, the country is better off.
God, you seriously have a deep hatred for him, it's not healthy. I literally feel we are living in the apocalypse these days, how angry is our God?

I don't care for him or his terrible leadership or character. I'll leave it at that so that the thread will not be derailed.

FWIW, 72% of the folks in Wilson County, TX, where Sutherland Springs is located, voted for Donald Trump.  This is 2017, an era of instant communication and nearly instant details.  These folks expect Trump to make a statement on their situation, and that's really not an extraordinary expectation in this day and age.  Trump's statement may inflame folks here, but it may be positive to the folks in Sutherland Springs, TX.

I don't know how many folks at that church came armed.  I do believe that there are gun owners at that church who survived the shooting who left their guns home that wonder if they could have saved lives if they came armed.  I'm a gun owner, and I haven't brought my gun to church to date, but if this happened and I were not carrying my gun to church, I'd wonder if it would have made a difference.

I will also say this:  We had a potentially deadly situation at my church 10 years ago.  While people were in the church, at a time where folks knew church would be open and people present, a distraught individual drove his truck right through the main entrance toward the sanctuary.  Had there been folks in the foyer and lobby, there would have been casualties; he was driving rather fast, and his truck was a full-size vehicle.  This was unexpected and unprovoked.  The man turned out to be mentally ill and was deteriorating as his marital and family situation was going down the tubes, but he had the capacity to kill.  And without a gun.

I believe that the right of citizens to keep and bear arms is as fundamental as the right to free speech and a free press.  As such, I believe that an enumerated Constitutional right is something that applies ESPECIALLY in extraordinary situations.  I will also note, respectfully but definitely, that many folks here who advocate that this right be rescinded because of actions such as this are closed-minded to any sort of travel ban, regardless of events in Orlando, San Bernadino, et al.  And, in this case, I suspect that the folks of Sutherland Springs, TX agree with me.  That they may have experienced tragedy and agree with the position I have espoused doesn't automatically make them right, but I wonder if the folks here who hate gun owners might want to ponder what the sincere views of these ordinary people might be.  
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Fuzzy Bear
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2017, 05:00:49 PM »

I wonder if the shooter is someone who attended the church or held a grievance against someone there.  Very sad either way.  Thank you first responders!
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Fuzzy Bear
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2017, 06:25:54 PM »

Being a Second Amendment absolutist, I am also a First Amendment absolutist.  I don't view this as an inappropriate time to talk about gun control, pro or con.  The incident is gun-related, the debate goes on, and the Constitution still applies, so why not?

Very rarely will I complain about being offended.  That's because the First Amendment gives the right to offend. 

The issue is not whether or not folks should discuss this issue "at a time like this".  The issue is whether or not folks can be grown-up about it and discuss the real issues here.  And there ARE real issues; they're right in front of us now.
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Fuzzy Bear
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« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2017, 06:14:49 PM »

How was it thwarted? 20 people were killed.

I'll bet that the person in that church who was on tap to be victim #21 would disagree with you.  There were more people to kill when these others intervened.  Church is also a place were even folks who are carrying concealed aren't particularly hypervigilant.  They're also not any more likely to be wearing soft body armor than folks not carrying, so issues of cover and concealment come into play if one is trying to take out an active shooter.

http://teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States%20of%20Awareness.htm

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I will also suggest that this shooter didn't want to die.  He wanted to kill, and get whatever benefit he saw out of pulling off a massacre of this size.  Such a shooter took encouragement from his action in his reasonable belief that few folks at the church would actually be armed, and even the ones that were would be in "Condition White". 

Yes, I believe that armed gun owners at that church saved lives in that circumstances.  Given what happened, no being armed at that church would have resulted in more deaths.
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Fuzzy Bear
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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2017, 12:06:27 PM »

Gov. Greg Abbot: hey, don't blow these shootings out of proportion guys. At least they're not as bad as the Holocaust.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/359133-texas-governor-says-church-shooting-should-be-put-in-context-of

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I'm viewing the signature that is a picture of Samuel J. Tilden's tomb, in which his epitaph was, "I Still Trust The People". 

I'm wondering if he still trusted the people to keep and bear arms as per the 2nd Amendment.  Somehow, I think he did.
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